The Quest Begins

[Mary Ann]

Hi,

I'm a mom of a 14 year old bass player. She's been playing guitar since she was 7 and double bass since she was 10. She's pretty good and has made all-region orchestra for the last two years. She'll be heading to high school next year and her goal is to make all-state (Texas).

Her private instructor told her she needs to move up from a 1/2 size to 3/4. Now is a good time since all-region just ended and she'll have time to get used to a new bass for high school.

Her 1/2 size is a Christopher Academy rental. I want her to have a better quality bass to last through high school. We started the quest at Fishburn Violin in the Spring/Klein area north of Houston near our house. She tried a "premium" chinese bass and immediately knew it wasn't for her because the neck was as big as a tree trunk and the tone was marginal. That would have been $150 per month for 36 months.

Next she tried a used KC Strings for $7500. She loved that bass. Slim neck and amazing tone. I don't know much about music and I was amazed by the sound. It had a good sized crack in the side. How worriesome is that? I don't know the model of the bass but it was built in 2007 so pretty young to have a large crack and too expensive for high school.

Mr. Fishburn was very pleasant and helpful and will try to get a few more basses in for her to try. The only other 3/4 he had was 10k. Way too much for our purposes right now.

On Friday we'll head into Houston to Lisle Violin. I hope we can find something there since the $1800 we've put into rental on the 1/2 for the last 2.5 years will be put toward the purchase price of the 3/4. That's a significant chunk of change that I would hate to walk away from. They also have a location in Pasadena that we can go to over Christmas break.

Once we find one that seems to fit the bill we can take it on trial for a week and let her private teacher have a look and listen.

Houston Craigs List has double basses listed from $200 to $15,000 but we would have no recourse if we got scammed. Interestingly, James E. Scoggan has an ad on Craigs List for basses. I've seen his name mentioned in the forums as a great luthier so I don't know if he has a shop now or is just clearing out old inventory.

I appreciate this amazing resource for those of us on the quest for the perfect bass for a fair price. I've read the newbie stuff and it really just seems to boil down to the best sound and feel for the price. My daughter is only 5'1" so she knows she wants a slimmer neck and sloping shoulders or whatever the proper term is. I thought it was interesting that she immediately knew the first bass was a no go at Fishburn.

Once we find one that seems to fit the bill we can take it on trial for a week and let her private teacher have a look and listen.

Any input would be welcome. It's fun having a musical kid when my husband and I are aren't musically inclined but it makes for a vertical learning curve. talkbass is a big help.

Thanks,

Mary Ann

mom to 14 year old with:
1/2 size Christoper Academy double bass
Ibanez electric bass guitar
Ibanez electric guitar
Ruben Flores classical guitar
and a small Washburn electric guitar that she can't bear to part with.

[fdeck]

Hats off to you for supporting your daughter's musical education! My kids are studying violin and cello, so it's been easier to keep them equipped. I'm the one with the Beast.

Do you know about Bob Gollihur's luthier directory:

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/luthiers.cfm

Sloping shoulders and slim neck are perfectly valid terminology. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a bass with a smaller body. Even some bigger players prefer a smaller bass. Within the 3/4 designation are basses covering a range of sizes, and there are also basses referred to as 5/8. The Shen SB200 Willow flatback might be worth looking at.

Slim neck might be harder to chase down. A lot of bassists, myself included, have reported that a skinny neck (relative to hand size of course) leads to pain in some of the hand muscles, so I think it has led to demand for thicker necks. Of course, if you have smaller hands, then I'd assume that the optimal neck would be narrower too.

One thought occurs to me. My luthier was showing me a bass, and told me: "The neck was way too thick, so I shaved it down." He said it in a way that sounded like it wasn't a big deal. I'm sure that others on the forum will chime in if it sounds like a good, or bad, idea to get a bass that is optimal in other ways, and have the neck thinned.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Slim neck might be harder to chase down. A lot of bassists, myself included, have reported that a skinny neck (relative to hand size of course) leads to pain in some of the hand muscles, so I think it has led to demand for thicker necks. Of course, if you have smaller hands, then I'd assume that the optimal neck would be narrower too.

I agree with the above but please be VERY cautious of going with a slim neck profile. It would be best to have a teacher evaluate what is right for her. In many cases, new players prefer a slim neck profile because, at the outset, it seems more comfortable. The operative word there is "seems." When the player advances, it's often the case that it's realized that the slim neck impedes the formation of the classic left-hand "claw." Here's a little intuitive test you can do. Open you left hand about half-way and spread your fingers apart. Now, try to maintain that finger spacing as you close down your hand. It can't really be done. This is one reason why slim necks can make it more difficult to play. As fdeck noted, it may be the case that a slimmer than typical neck profile is right for your daughter. For her sake, please make sure before you leap.

[dtosky]

Originally Posted by fdeck

One thought occurs to me. My luthier was showing me a bass, and told me: "The neck was way too thick, so I shaved it down." He said it in a way that sounded like it wasn't a big deal. I'm sure that others on the forum will chime in if it sounds like a good, or bad, idea to get a bass that is optimal in other ways, and have the neck thinned.

I recently had my neck slimmed a bit on a whim while I was having other work done on my bass at the Guarneri House in Grand Rapids, MI. It is not a complicated procedure and didn't take too long. Just used a finger plane to remove most of the wood then a variety of files and sandpapers. Aaron even let me go at the neck myself with the plane... it was pretty fun.

[Steve Swan]

I'd suggest trying to find good bass specialists with a good selection of new higher end student models and mid-priced used european basses in the Austin or greater Dallas area. It might take an overnight stay trip on Friday-Saturday to spend time with a larger selection of instruments and then to go back the next day to go through the final selection. Finding a shop with experience working with serious high school players will really help you to make a good decision. Good luck!

[MIKMAN]

You are an excellent parent and i'm sure that your daughter will remember your help for eternity. As for the proper instrument, if i were in your shoes i'd visit Dallastrings. Cody Sisk is a serious gentleman,an accomplished luthier and posts frequently in TBDB, so he can be of major help. If you can reach Dallas easily it's the proper choice. Good luck and keep us posted.
Mike

[JAKBOUND]

Start at Lisle on Bissonette. They have bass luthiers on site and are familiar with exactly what you are trying to do. Jim Scoggan has a range of basses which would be worth a visit too, you should set up an appointment, as he is often playing out of town. (Get directions as his place takes some finding). Read all the newby threads. You may want to check out the for sale threads in this forum. I seem to remember one of the Houston bass players has a bass for sale that matches your requirements. Good luck.

[Mary Ann]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. On Friday we went into Houston and went to Lisle Violin on Bissonnet. They did not have any ¾ size basses in the store. They called their Pasadena location and they also had zero ¾ basses in stock. I was very surprised. They said they would be happy to order a bass but that it would take a while with importing it then setting it up.

That seems like a very inefficient way to find a bass. Place an order, wait a few months for the bass to come in and be set-up, drive down and give it a try. If you don’t like it you have to rinse and repeat. Argh. We have $1200 in rental credit at Lisle but it looks like we might end up walking away from that. They said it would be at least 5 weeks to even go from a ½ to ¾ rental. Annoying.

While we were there a guy came in with a ¾ that he wanted to sell on consignment. I never did get a straight answer on what the heck the bass was be it laminate or hybrid or what. My daughter tried it but it didn’t do much for her. Lisle would let us use ½ the rental credit toward a consignment bass.

We then headed down to Gold Violin. He had everything from cheap laminates to very expensive old carved basses. My daughter tried a Romanian fully carved from 2002 that she really liked that was $6125. Mr. Gold was adamant that a ¾ is too big for her though and she needs to stick with a ½. I was impressed that he was discouraging us from buying the bass from him. Says something for his character. It was a bit frustrating though since I’m clueless and the “experts” are giving us different info.

My daughter is 5’2”. Her private instructor has a master’s in bass performance and told her she should move up to a ¾. Mr. Gold has been a luthier forever. I think we need another opinion. Any of you care to weigh in? My daughter is 14, currently about 5’2” and will probably end up about 5’5”. I guess her hands are pretty big for a 14 year old girl. Feel free to give your input.

I need to talk to her instructor. I’ll email him this week to get more recommendations.

My sister lives in Dallas so we can head up there for MLK weekend in January to check out some shops.

My daughter tried a $665 bow at Lisle. I can understand why there is so much difference between basses but I don’t understand how a stick with hair on it can be worth a grand or more. I need to read up more on bows.

And so the quest continues.......

Mary Ann

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Mary Ann

Her private instructor told her she needs to move up from a 1/2 size to 3/4.

Originally Posted by Mary Ann

Her private instructor has a master’s in bass performance and told her she should move up to a ¾.

That's it, that's all, there ain't no more. Place your faith in her private instructor. With all due respect, not in any luthier or other player(s) on the internet.

[Eric Hochberg]

Remember there is a lot variation in so called 3/4 size instruments. String lengths from bridge to nut can vary from 40-43", for instance. So, don't worry about what anyone calls the size of the bass, check out the all other measurements too, especially upper bout width. A smaller 18-19" upper bout and shorter string length of 40-41" might be just the ticket for her. She will know when an instrument is comfortable to play. Her teacher is the one to help with this.

A bow is definitely more than a stick with hair. Like anything else, a finely crafted bow can really get up there in price. A good quality carbon fiber bow is a less expensive way to get into something very playable and good sounding. Check into Finale and Metropolitan.

[Andrew McGregor]

Think of a bow as a week or two's work from someone who has spent many years, perhaps as much as a decade, learning how to do what they do. Not to mention, a high end bow is made of a couple of hundred worth of materials. Bowmakers have to make a living, so that's how a new bow gets its value. Old bows (sometimes) have antique value as well. A bow is one of the most precision made objects that can possibly be made entirely by hand, after all, and good wood bows actually still are (carbon fiber is an entirely different process... still partly hand made, but the tooling is pretty extensive).

[Eric Swanson]

What a nice, thoughtful job you are doing as a parent! You inspire me as I try to support my (six year old) daughter's musical interests. I hope to do half as well.

Its true that "a stick with hair on it" does seem like a curious thing to spend much money on. My limited experience as a string player, however, is that the bow's quality may be as important as the bass', if not even more important.

A good, responsive bow may save your daughter many hours, if not years, of fruitless practice time. It is very difficult to tell a "good" bow from a "bad" one based on looks. Even bows made by the same maker vary from stick to stick.

Bows are subtle; they can look very similar to each other, but be as different to play as chalk and cheese. Perhaps her teacher can best advise you both on what they see your daughter needing, at this point.

Auditioning bows usually involves more trial. The good news is that most shops are happy to let prospective buyers test several bows before buying one, even going so far as mailing the bows out for review.

Good luck. It is apt that you are not rushing. I appreciate your thoughtful, considered approach.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Remember there is a lot variation in so called 3/4 size instruments. String lengths from bridge to nut can vary from 40-43", for instance. So, don't worry about what anyone calls the size of the bass, check out the all other measurements too, especially upper bout width. A smaller 18-19" upper bout and shorter string length of 40-41" might be just the ticket for her. She will know when an instrument is comfortable to play. Her teacher is the one to help with this.

This is an extremely important point. Indeed, there are no real standards as far as these sizes go. There are more like ranges. My previous short post was to reinforce that if her teacher says she needs to be in the size ranges that we typically think of as 3/4, then go with his/her advice. After all, it's the private instructor you are paying and, understandably, is the single professional who has the greatest insight into your daughter's abilities, capabilities, and needs. Please don't be frustrated or confused by different advice from different "experts." The private instructor should get 10 votes to everyone else's one.

Is it possible to have the instructor along with you for parts of your shopping? At the very least, as has already been suggested, you should be able to get any bass on approval so that the instructor can help to evaluate the "instrument/daughter" combination.

If you are willing to walk away from the rental fee, then perhaps folks here could be of even greater help if we knew your overall budget for bass and bow. It would allow for some targeted recommendations. In the end though, especially considering your daughter's stature, finding an instrument that fits her will require some special attention.

As others have already pointed out, your daughter is extremely fortunate to have your dedication and your willingness and drive to do it the "right way."

[Mary Ann]

Thank you all for your kind words but this is just part of being a parent. When she started learning guitar I learned about those. When the younger one started surfing I learned about surfboards. Sailing. Drums. Bass. Same thing. Right now the younger one is starting to play lacrosse so we are learning about that weird game. It's all good fun. When I was younger I loved seeing the world and trying new things and it's fun to continue that through the kids' eyes. I think it makes it even more interesting that they are choosing activities that my husband and I know nothing about.

The 14 year old has been playing guitar for 7 years and db for 4 years so we are confident that she will continue at least through high school. I'm willing to spend some money on a good bow and bass but I also need to do some home repair projects and I want to take the kids on a fun trip this summer. So, what do you think for a decent bass and bow to take her through high school? 5k? That's a ton of money but would pay off if she could get some college scholarship money. Ok, I won't bet on that but it would be nice.

So she needs a nice bow and a smallish 3/4 bass for 5k. I've decided that I'm a bit of a bass racist and would prefer to avoid Chinese basses if possible. No good reason except that I think we import way too much stuff from China and I'm willing to pay more to support other economies.

What about a 1996 Emmanuel Wilfer? "$6000 - 3/4 Double Bass Wilfer WLB23 Made 05/1996 - Fully Carved - Assembled by Wm. Lewis & Son" That one is on craigslist here in Houston.

We've been to 3 shops and Houston doesn't seem well stocked with basses. We'll keep looking. Any particular brands or models that might be good possibilities?

Thanks for all your help. It is greatly appreciated.

Mary Ann

[Eric Hochberg]

I understand not wanting to spend your money on foreign made goods. If that bass is a Wilfer, it fits that category, albeit used. Wm. Lewis is just the importers name, AFAIK. The only USA builders in your price range that I would recommend are Upton. They will set you up with something. The Gary Karr model might be good for your daughter. I think it is made here.

[JAKBOUND]

Houston seems to be feast or famine for basses. I ended up travelling out of town to try the bass I eventually ended up with, but at times I wasn't in the market, have seen some great buys. I ended up with a Chinese bass, which worked out well for me.
Lisle had a great Chinese bass with sloping shoulders that sounded and played well. May be worth asking if they have any more coming. With the rental cash you have that would be a good value option.
Other options Amati Violins, Wu's fine Violins in Sugarland, but sugest you call ahead to check what they have in.
Your daughter's teacher is probably plugged into the local bass player network and may get news of something coming up for sale, as well as providing invaluable advice.
Patience is the key.

[Mary Ann]

Eric H, the Uptons do look nice for the money. We'll check them out when we get a chance to go to Boston. Just to clarify I was trying to avoid Chinese basses, not imported basses.

That's odd. Someone mentioned the TMEA Convention in San Antonio in early 2011 but the post seems to be gone now. That's a good idea if we can get up there during the conference.

Jakbound, I've about decided to go ahead and order the Christoper Professional Hybrid Violin shape from Lisle for her. For $3100 minum $1200 rental (more by the time the Chris comes in), it will be a bargain. She'll have a 3/4 and then we can keep shopping for an upgrade and eventually sell the Chris. It's hard to walk away from that rental money. I'll give them a call this week to place the order. Do you remember which Chinese bass you liked at Lisle?

Thanks for the help. I'll keep reading and learning.

Mary Ann

[Andrew McGregor]

I'd suggest a gamba shape bass... this is somewhat personal preference, of course, but I get really tired of the corners of a violin shape bass digging into my knee/leg when I'm sitting in orchestra.

[JAKBOUND]

I thought that Lisle brought that bass in but I could be wrong, I just played it while picking up my bass. Speak to Dorian or Elisabeth, at Lisle. If you didnt talk to one of those on your last visit. I recommend going back with your daughter and doing so before ordering, just to be sure.

[marvin spangles]

Originally Posted by Mary Ann

Just to clarify I was trying to avoid Chinese basses,
Mary Ann

That's a pity because the Shen's are really well made. And you get a lot of bang for your buck.I am fortunate enough to have two basses. One for Jazz and another for classical/shows etc. The Shen Willow Rogeri IME is a great value classical bass that produces a quality sound.