A Question

[Cathead]

I have heard the talk about solid top guitars "opening up" with age and don't doubt it at all. But, the other night on another forum I read a post from a feller talkin' about his plywood upright bass opening up with age. Now, I never heard of a plywood instrument opening up like that and wondered if any of you have. So, that's my question. Is it possible for a plywood upright bass to open up and get louder and the such with age?

[anon_6j591b0]

Not as obviously or nearly to the same degree maybe as a solid instrument but it's wood and if you play it a lot it will open up. I've got a laminated bass I bought new almost eight years ago that's gotten noticeably more open sounding. I hadn't paid it much mind until I had it back to the builder a couple of years after getting it and he commented immediately on the difference. In my case I haven't noticed more volume as much as the sound becoming less constrained.

[lloccmttocs]

95% of the time laminates won't "open up" I've had this discussion with Gary up at Upton. Maybe there is that one instance when it opens up, but I doubt it. Chances are the only thing that opened up was your playing ability and your ability to get the most sound and best sound out of the bass. As for guitars, I don't see why it wouldn't open up, I've never actually thought about it. But it probably won't be as noticable as when I bass starts to open up.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by lloccmttocs

But it probably won't be as noticable as when I bass starts to open up.

Why not?

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by lloccmttocs

95% of the time laminates won't "open up" I've had this discussion with Gary up at Upton. Maybe there is that one instance when it opens up, but I doubt it. Chances are the only thing that opened up was your playing ability and your ability to get the most sound and best sound out of the bass. As for guitars, I don't see why it wouldn't open up, I've never actually thought about it. But it probably won't be as noticable as when I bass starts to open up.

I have to agree the lion’s share of a laminate’s sound improving has to do with the player making friends with a particular instrument and learning to draw the sound out. I’d hate to try and say what percentage of “learning a bass” vs. real “opening” is but I do believe the sound of any wood instrument will in and of itself improve due to the wood being vibrated.

"Open" is probably not the best choice of word for what happens to a laminate. Years ago I bought carved bass that hadn’t been played much in a couple of years and I well recall the dramatic the change that occurred over several months of daily practice and gigs. There is though a "played" feel and looseness of the sound that a non carved instrument can acquire. Over time any wood becomes more sympathetic with the vibration of the strings but in a laminate it’s not at all the same as what happens when an new or unplayed carved instrument “blossoms”. Maybe a lot of the “played” sound a laminate gets is through the neck wood loosening up? How a neck deals with vibration makes a noticeable difference in the sound of any stringed instrument. Maybe that’s mostly what I’m hearing in my current bass.

Then there’s the whole discussion of how the instrument is vibrated. I think it’s Rabbath I heard in a recent interview talking about how different players with different touch and intent will open (or not open) up an instrument in a particular way. I know Casals and others have talked about this too and I believe it’s a huge factor.

[musicrazy]

I don't really think so, I have a plywood bass, I don't play it as much as I play the other bass I have, only on occasion, but it sound the same as when I bought it a while ago. But I don't know, maybe if you wereto play it a lot...

[Cathead]

Very interesting replies and I appreciate it. I, too, am very skeptical that the sound of a plywood instrument would improve with age. I am sure you all have probably experienced the phenomenon that your bass is sounding bassier and better than it did last week and then tomorrow it sounds average again. I don't know how to explain that, but it happens to me. I thank you for your response.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by jbonny

Over time any wood becomes more sympathetic with the vibration of the strings but in a laminate it’s not at all the same as what happens when an new or unplayed carved instrument “blossoms”.

Let's keep in mind how much of that "wood" in a laminate is really glue between the lams.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by Cathead

I am sure you all have probably experienced the phenomenon that your bass is sounding bassier and better than it did last week and then tomorrow it sounds average again. I don't know how to explain that, but it happens to me. I thank you for your response.

Word. That happens to me just about every time I play mine. Too many variables: the weather, the space, your mood and energy, string gunk, etc... today it's THUNDER FROM GOD, tomorrow it's wimpy doodoo.

[Cathead]

Ha......wimpy doodoo........I gotta remember that one.

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by drurb

Let's keep in mind how much of that "wood" in a laminate is really glue between the lams.

One thing we should not do here is compare what a carved bass does to a laminate...it's apples and oranges. It is reasonable to expect a laminated bass to change with heavy playing though...not the glue part but the wood part. Do you ski? Take a laminated wood core ski like a Volkl that's full of epoxy and ski 150 days on it and the response of the wood changes and that is a fact. Why wouldn't a laminated bass change with heavy playing? Maybe not a great deal but noticeably.

It's fine to speculate but how many people here are speaking from the experience of taking a new or longtime unplayed laminate, playing it 2-5 hours a day every day for at least a year and say they don't think the wood has audibly loosened up? Like I said earlier if nothing else the solid wood neck will loosen up and that will make a subtle difference you could reasonably expect to hear. The bottom line is that regardless of anyone's experience it is not possible to state empirically that one opinion or the other is going to hold true for every instrument. I certainly wouldn't roll the dice and buy a tight sounding laminate expecting it might open up like I might a carved bass. Any "opening up" it does if it does is going to be so subtle as not to have any major impact on the quality of the sound. However playing the bass is like being married and if you have any real commitment you should expect to be aware of the most minute subtleties in everything that's happening with your partner.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by jbonny

One thing we should not do here is compare what a carved bass does to a laminate...it's apples and oranges. It is reasonable to expect a laminated bass to change with heavy playing though...not the glue part but the wood part. Do you ski? Take a laminated wood core ski like a Volkl that's full of epoxy and ski 150 days on it and the response of the wood changes and that is a fact. Why wouldn't a laminated bass change with heavy playing? Maybe not a great deal but noticeably.

It's fine to speculate but how many people here are speaking from the experience of taking a new or longtime unplayed laminate, playing it 2-5 hours a day every day for at least a year and say they don't think the wood has audibly loosened up? Like I said earlier if nothing else the solid wood neck will loosen up and that will make a subtle difference you could reasonably expect to hear. The bottom line is that regardless of anyone's experience it is not possible to state empirically that one opinion or the other is going to hold true for every instrument. I certainly wouldn't roll the dice and buy a tight sounding laminate expecting it might open up like I might a carved bass. Any "opening up" it does if it does is going to be so subtle as not to have any major impact on the quality of the sound. However playing the bass is like being married and if you have any real commitment you should expect to be aware of the most minute subtleties in everything that's happening with your partner.

So, it seems we basically agree! I was merely pointing out that just one of the many differences that may account for lams not opening up like carved basses is that a substantial proportion of the lam is glue. That glue and the formation of the lams themselves would seem to severely limit the degree to which the "wood part" can change as a result of playing. In any case, my opinion is that if there is any aspect of the apparent "opening up" of a laminate that can be attributed to physical changes in the wood itself, it is extremely small when you consider all of the other potential factors involved. Vibrating laminated wood sure isn't the same s skiing on it! Although, considering what some of our rockabilly friends do...

[Bass]

Originally Posted by drurb

... Although, considering what some of our rockabilly friends do...

I cracked the upper rib of my bass with a drumstick a few weeks ago. I don't think it sounds any different though.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bass

I cracked the upper rib of my bass with a drumstick a few weeks ago. I don't think it sounds any different though.

The drumstick?