Question about 4/4 scale length

[Rickett Customs]

About how long is the typical scale range of a 4/4 size upright?

thanks.
/Jason

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Alembicplyr

About how long is the typical scale range of a 4/4 size upright?

thanks.
/Jason

Old basses had no standard measurements. From country to country in the making and selling alike, the term '4/4' varies depending on who you ask. The String length (scale of vibrating string) can be anywhere from 41" to 46". Most of the older larger Basses have been cut down in size and length to make playing possible by modern standards. Today, Basses from 43"-44" are seen on occasion. I know of one Orchestra player with an old German 5-string with about a 46" string length. I have owned several 44s" as well. The goal is to modify them to be as close to 42" or less if possible to meet the market demands.

My loudest most powerful Bass is a healthy English Bass by Samuel Gilkes made in 1814. It has been slightly modified and the SL is only 40 3/4". It is considered a 3/4 size but only fits a 7/8 case/bag.

No one I know shops for a 4/4 String length. A big Bass with 41-42" is what is most desired for sound usually.

Also, read this TB thread on sizes for more info.

[Teijo]

This one has been bothering me too. I have a DB that has 111cm scale lenght, thats 43.7 inches. One luthier still called it 3/4, other said it is 4/4. Who am I to believe? Not that it matters. The bass feels easy enough to play and I am more than happy with the sound. It is maby something thats "nice to know".

Btw, I am thinking of buying new strings. Should I buy 4/4 strings? OR maby I should ask this one in the strings discussion.

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Old basses had no standard measurements. From country to country in the making and selling alike, the term '4/4' varies depending on who you ask. The String length (scale of vibrating string) can be anywhere from 41" to 46". Most of the older larger Basses have been cut down in size and length to make playing possible by modern standards. Today, Basses from 43"-44" are seen on occasion. I know of one Orchestra player with an old German 5-string with about a 46" string length. I have owned several 44s" as well. The goal is to modify them to be as close to 42" or less if possible to meet the market demands.

My loudest most powerful Bass is a healthy English Bass by Samuel Gilkes made in 1814. It has been slightly modified and the SL is only 40 3/4". It is considered a 3/4 size but only fits a 7/8 case/bag.

No one I know shops for a 4/4 String length. A big Bass with 41-42" is what is most desired for sound usually.

Also, read this TB thread on sizes for more info.

Thnaks Ken,
This is regarding a PVC EUB build I have going on right now and was attempting to model this to the size of a 4/4.
Alright, attempting to build a PVC EUB!
If you have time to look at this thread, i'd appreciate any input you might have.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Alembicplyr

Thnaks Ken,
This is regarding a PVC EUB build I have going on right now and was attempting to model this to the size of a 4/4.
Alright, attempting to build a PVC EUB!
If you have time to look at this thread, i'd appreciate any input you might have.

I don't have any input. I like my Basses to made from old wood. PVC is not a tone wood the last time I looked..

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by Teijo

This one has been bothering me too. I have a DB that has 111cm scale lenght, thats 43.7 inches. One luthier still called it 3/4, other said it is 4/4. Who am I to believe? Not that it matters. The bass feels easy enough to play and I am more than happy with the sound. It is maby something thats "nice to know".

Btw, I am thinking of buying new strings. Should I buy 4/4 strings? OR maby I should ask this one in the strings discussion.

You might want to consult the string manufacturer. I think D'Addario lists tensions for their strings based on a scale length of 110 cm., which is about 43 inches. It probably depends some on the strings.

My bass is a modern European bass sold as a "4/4". The string length is 43". A Romanian company also makes "4/4" DBs with the same mensur.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

The Scale/String length does NOT dictate what length string you need. You must measure from the Ball end of the String at the tailpiece to the Tuner Posts to insure you have at least another 4" to wrap around each post as a minimum.

A 4/4 size or any size for that matter means very little. 44" or 43" in itself is also an incomplete measurement when looking for strings. I have one Bass that is 77-78" tall without the endpin or socket and that's with a short 3-string scroll. I have another about 72" and they both have a 44" string length. This length is determined by the maker and not the overall size. Neck length, body length, FF hole and F-notch placement all make up this measurement. The length of your tailpiece/tailwire also contributes to the length of string needed.

[Teijo]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

The Scale/String length does NOT dictate what length string you need. You must measure from the Ball end of the String at the tailpiece to the Tuner Posts to insure you have at least another 4" to wrap around each post as a minimum.

A 4/4 size or any size for that matter means very little. 44" or 43" in itself is also an incomplete measurement when looking for strings. I have one Bass that is 77-78" tall without the endpin or socket and that's with a short 3-string scroll. I have another about 72" and they both have a 44" string length. This length is determined by the makes and not the overall size. Neck length, body length, FF hole and F-notch placement all make up this measurement. The length of your tailpiece/tailwire also contributes to the length of string needed.

Thats important piece of information, thank you very much. I am selling my harp amp to get the new strings for my DB, and it would be quite embarrassing to find out that I got too short ones. Thats my last resort so to speak at this moment. Now I know that the strings must be 58 inch long.

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by Teijo

harp amp

????

[Teijo]

Originally Posted by bassist14

????

Just a little Fender tube combo I got for playing harp. It is actually Musicmaster Bass from 1977. I should have said gear. Gets a little off topic this way dont you think?

http://cachepe.samedaymusic.com/medi...30276d87fd.JPG

And not that big orchestra thing either.

[bassist14]

ok, i was not sure if you were talking about this :

[Ludwig]

There are two things for the size definition: size of body and string length.
Concerning strings, the vibrating length defines what size bass is used. It seems, a vibrating string length of 110 - 115 cm is normal for a 4/4, a virating string length of 103 - 107 cm is normal for a 3/4. The "standard" vibrating string length I see used around here would be 104-105 cm.
If you don't look for strings, but for bags, the size of your bass could be different. There are long scale basses with small bodies and short scale basses with large bodies. My 104cm scale bass does not fit into a 3/4 bag, I have to use a 4/4 bag, but that is a very loose fit.

[Steve Swan]

Having just come from the NAMM show, the German makers are pretty uniform in their current labelling these days. I saw only one German-made bass, a Wilfer, at the entire show that was labelled 7/8. Otherwise, big German basses were labelled as "4/4" and had string lengths of 42 - 42 3/4", or 106.5 - 108.5 cm. The only bass with a string length of 43" or longer that I saw was a 7/8 Eastman. I'm sure that I'll see a lot of intersting stuff at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt, Germany this coming March.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Having just come from the NAMM show, the German makers are pretty uniform in their current labelling these days. I saw only one German-made bass, a Wilfer, at the entire show that was labelled 7/8. Otherwise, big German basses were labelled as "4/4" and had string lengths of 42 - 42 3/4", or 106.5 - 108.5 cm. The only bass with a string length of 43" or longer that I saw was a 7/8 Eastman. I'm sure that I'll see a lot of intersting stuff at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt, Germany this coming March.

Steve.. PLEASE be my Eyes and Ears over there as well as at future NAMM Shows as I am retiring from these Circus events they call Trade Shows. NAMM has become a consumer show basically with 80% of the attendance being Non-Industry Buyers. The ISB show is another story and is what they claim it to be. I plan on going to the next one in Pa.

On the size thing, I must have and have had recently several full sized Basses that are called 7/8ths in the old language. Still, in the old Basses, there are a few giants roaming around towering well over 6 feet tall and String Lengths of 110-116CM or 43-46".

That means then from my list of Basses past and present (on my website) that my Morelli, 5-string Hungarian, Prescott, Storoni and Mystery Bass would all fall under the 'Full sized' category in one or more ways.

Counting Shoulder size combined with Rib size, My Gilkes, Hart and former Dodd are on now way like what we call a 3/4 these days. They are within the both and string length sized of a 3/4-7/8 but when you have to be on your toes to reach up for the High G at the end of the Fingerboard, then this too is what I consider a full size or regular size Orchestra Bass.

In no way do I ever feel I have only 3/4ths of a Bass in my hands playing the Gilkes which is the smalled of all the Basses mentioned above.

I think that 4/4 is the old term that makes us think of some of those 'giants' out there. Full sized is more like what is used for the average Orchestra whereas I would visualize a 3/4 as a student type Bass or one like a Juzek/Wilfer factory Bass as used often in Jazz. The larger 7/8ths or older 4/4 models would fall into the 'Full Sized' category.

Anyone rent a Car lately? Why do you have to get the 'Luxury' model rental to end up with what would be considered really as a 'full sized' car when the 'full size' is so small, only children or smaller people can sit comfortably in the back seat.

I vote for new size names like Full Size, 3/4, Solo?, 1/2 and then the smaller fractions for children.

I have a smaller 19th century 3/4 Bohemian Bass that might be called a 5/8ths by some but with the belly being 43" long, I wouldn't knock it down to 5/8ths just because the String length is 40.75" (103.5cm). My Gilkes is just 3/4" longer in the body with the same exact string length but with broader shoulders up to the Neck like a Cello. That feels like a full sized Bass to my body but only 3/4 size to my fingering hand.

Hey, do people have to fall in the same measurement categories? I guess Basses have just as much variety, don't they!

[godoze]

Don't be afraid of long mensures; I recently brought back a bass with a 43.5" string length and it is easy to play.

[Steve Swan]

Ken,

Our morning NAMM stroll two years ago was one of my favorite memories of going there for last 22 years. Do you ever go to the Musikmesse? Anyone else here going this year? I'm planning on my first one in 20 years.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Ken,

Our morning NAMM stroll two years ago was one of my favorite memories of going there for last 22 years. Do you ever go to the Musikmesse? Anyone else here going this year? I'm planning on my first one in 20 years.

Really? That's nice to know. I enjoyed it as well.

My last Frankfurt show was 1990. My first was 1980. Then I didn't go till about '86 and went each year. I had a booth booked for 1991 but War broke out in the Gulf when I landed in L.A. At that point I didn't feel it was a good time to travel. Also, my youngest son Michael was born that same day 1/16/91. Another reason to stay home.

Business wise, I don't miss Namm or Frankfurt at all. We do just fine with out it. Meeting friends is the only part I miss.

[Teijo]

Thanks to all and special thank you to Ken Smith for advice. I have new strings and a setup and I am happy as... (inser an idiom here). I did not ounly got a set of new strings. From this moment on I know how to. Thats whats important.

I was so inspired that I went and drove 300km to get a lesson. Thats 186 miles.

[Nuno A.]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Having just come from the NAMM show, the German makers are pretty uniform in their current labelling these days. I saw only one German-made bass, a Wilfer, at the entire show that was labelled 7/8. Otherwise, big German basses were labelled as "4/4" and had string lengths of 42 - 42 3/4", or 106.5 - 108.5 cm. The only bass with a string length of 43" or longer that I saw was a 7/8 Eastman. I'm sure that I'll see a lot of intersting stuff at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt, Germany this coming March.

Hey Steve, ill be too at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt with Velvet Strings, it would be great to meet you, ill be in hall 1.2 stand A25.

Nuno

[Barcza]

The 4/4 size is beetwen 108-112 scale lenght, it's pretty big. Most of the jazz players and the classical players use 3/4 for solo and chamber music situation. The 4/4 is very prevailing in Germany and Austria in the symphonic orchestras, becouse they use 5 string basses. In 5 string the 4/4 sounds better I think.