Rabbath Bent Endpin

[Clay_Bass]

So at the begining of this summer I bought a George Vance Bent Endpin and have been practicing with it all summer so far. Just for kicks today I put the straight pin back on... WOW the bass feels to be about 40 pounds heavier and my balance was totally off with the straight pin. Also I noticed while trying the straight pin that my bow arm had much more tension than with the bent pin. Anyone else find this?

I'd highly reccomend trying out a bent pin to anybody. I think I'll have to get a better laboire pin than what I have now this fall, but I would highly reccomend vance's pin as a great way to test it out, and for 25 bucks its not horrible if you don't like it.

Even before lessons with a rabbath teacher I found it very confortable and intuitive to balance and use.

(no connection with vance, just a happy customer)

[Pops]

I have had a very similar experience. The bent endpin was strongly recomended to me so I had my lutheir drill the hole in the bottom of my bass for 70 bucks and then made my end from a wooden dowl I got from the hardware store. Being a tall 6'4", the endpin has made a world of difference. My posture is much more normal while playing in all parts of the instrument. With the bass being more horizontal than vertical bowing is much more relaxed and natural. overall, it has contru=ibuted to a more relaxed, stable playing experience. trying the stright endpin after the bent I wondered how I had been ever able to play anything, I have heard from my teacher and other shorter bassists that when they tried it they could not feel much of an advantage. I was really able to take my playing to the next level and would also highly recomend the bent endpin.

[Eric Hochberg]

Let's distinguish between the bent endpin, which actually is bent, and the Laborie/Rabbath endpin which is straight but inserted into the bass at a 44 degree angle. I also started with the bent pin and then got the Laborie, and agree that it has been very useful, taking a lot of stress off of my left hand and thumb and more relaxing for my bow arm. I really like my posture and the straight forward positioning of the bass with accompanying equal weight distribution on my feet.

[dchan]

Not to hijack this thread, but I feel the same way with sitting on a stool vs. standing. For several years after I started playing, I always stood and used a straight endpin, and I couldn't figure out why professionals used stools. I could never get comfortable sitting and playing without any hindrances in my bow-arm motion.

Then one day, poof, I suddenly figure out how to play while sitting, and I immediately found it to be the perfect way to play: no more pressure from the bass on your left arm and thumb, which freed up my left hand, and no more struggling to find a standing position that works each time. Just sit and play. So it has come to the point that I can't figure out why I was ever comfortable standing while playing.

[Marcus Johnson]

I was sceptical about the Laborie pin until I tried it on a bass belonging to a friend who studied with Rabbath. It was a performance at a big jazz fest, and the guy offered to install the conventional pin, but I wanted to give it a go. It was pretty amazing to me. It just felt effortless, especially in thumb position, and the bass did indeed seem "weightless". I was amazed at how easily I made the transition to this new angle.... it felt completely natural to me. It's something I would consider doing to my own bass now.

[damonsmith]

My experience has been sort of 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. It makes the upper register more accessible, but harder to dig in down low.
I remain a fan of the straight endpin.

[Clay_Bass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

My experience has been sort of 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. It makes the upper register more accessible, but harder to dig in down low.
I remain a fan of the straight endpin.

I did feel that way at first, then took a lesson doing rabbath stuff and started working on using my right arm differently. I find it easier to get a big sound out of the whole instrument now, it's simmilar to what Rufus Reid does with the right arm I believe(would make sense seeing he studied with rabbath).

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Let's distinguish between the bent endpin, which actually is bent, and the Laborie/Rabbath endpin which is straight but inserted into the bass at a 44 degree angle. I also started with the bent pin and then got the Laborie, and agree that it has been very useful, taking a lot of stress off of my left hand and thumb and more relaxing for my bow arm. I really like my posture and the straight forward positioning of the bass with accompanying equal weight distribution on my feet.

agreed, it is different from the laboire pin but my pin from vance is welded at the 44 degree angle at the height my straight pin was, I've seen pins from vance that were curved so I don't know which you had but it's definatley different from the drilled pin. I'm thinking if I do get the hole drilled I want the pin slightly higher but not much.

side note anyone know of someone in NYC who has done laboire pins before?

[jgbass]

I used the Laborie endpin on a previous bass I sold, and now use the Vance endpin on my current bass, with the expectation of getting the Laborie put in this as soon as I get it to World of Strings later this week. Yes, they are different, but both do take the weght off the thumb and play similarly. I just personally prefer the Laborie. Apparently now there is a style of Laborie that has a detactable end that will expose the point.

After playing with the Laborie for a few years, I started taking lessons with a new classical teacher. He kept complaining about the endpin, convinced it had no stability, or something like that. Having to change back was just awful, so I started sitting while playing but that's not a total solution for me when I switch to playing jazz.

I have stopped studying with this teacher, and much as I like his approach in most areas, his aversion to these endpins and just about anything having to do with Rabbath, will make it just about impossible to study with him again.

So, I went to a lesson with my jazz teacher a few weeks ago, and there it was -- a nice Laborie endpin on the teacher's bass.

[Will Yager]

I've been wanting to try one of those Rabbath endpins since I had a lesson with Rufus.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

ok.. A couple of thoughts here and some questions..

First off, there seems to be some different types listed here.

The Bent Endpin? Goes in the regular Endpin socket? Rod diameter size?

The angled Endpin where you drill an extra hole in the Block? Ouch.. Poor Bass..... Various diameters or one size?

Any other varieties?

Pictures? It would be great if we could see what you guys/gals? are talking about. Would be less confusing, about 90% less for me at least..lol

Now, for experience I only recall playing only one Bass with one of these types and I believe it was Bent but cant recall if it was a separate drilled hole. Maybe it was..??

This was a large 7/8ths or full sized German Bass. I was just trying out the Bass and it seemed lighter maybe but was hard to hold. I felt like the Bass kept moving away from me but the trial only lasted a few minutes at most. I can see how some practice would be in order as well as some lessons too. After playing the 'regular way' for over 40 years, it's difficult to change anything.

Another experience I had was with a Bass I tried that had the extra hole drilled but the regular Pin was in the socket. I reached down out of curiosity to feel the hole behind the endpin and there was some air coming out when I plucked the string. Then I put my foot under the hole and bowed the Bass. Even more air as if the Bass was 'down firing' with that open 'port'.

Now, how can two holes be good in a bottom Block when we are so worried about damaging a Block when wheeling a Bass out in the street. Isn't the Block area delicate with all that weight on it? Drilling extra holds don't weaken the Block?

For fun, I took a broom handle cut-off and sized it to fit in the extra hole behind the standard endpin. When I played the Bass it was way way louder and Deeper as well.

Now I suppose if the 'other' Endpin' (not exactly sure what to call it) was in there, would you have the standard endpin pushed up inside the Bass or pulled out entirely? Would that smaller endpin shaft hole 'down fire' as well but to a lesser degree? Wouldn't the endpin up in the Bass dampen the sound of the Bass like we have discussed with fixed length and shortened Pins?

Would the Bass be easier to play with the added hole further back in the Block towards the Back of the Bass or does that matter? Does the bent pin in the regular socket balance as well as the added Pin or does it matter?

Ok, last topic here and then I am done for the time being.
I have seen Hal Robinson do a Solo (Harbison) with the Philly Orch. and used his sloped shouldered French Bass (was his Father's before him) and he had a bent Pin from what I could see where I was sitting. When he plays in the Orchestra, he has a regular Pin in his Italian Bass with the carved head. I also saw him in a Chamber group once as well and did the Rossini Cello/Bass Duo with that same Bass. Regular endpin.

My two questions (maybe two) are why does he use different endpins if one is better that the other? Also, why don't we see the Philly Orch. or any other Orchestra with these Bent Pins (regular socket or added) in the section if it makes playing so much easier. Isn't the music itself hard enough to play that if better, they would all switch like they often do when trying out a possible better string?

Ok.. That's my short list of questions.. Fire away.. And.. if possible.. post some pics to show the comparisons.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

The Bent Endpin? Goes in the regular Endpin socket? Rod diameter size?

Yes, in the regular socket. George Vance sells one of 10mm to fit a Gotz socket. I bought some aluminum rod and bent it to fit in my larger socket.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

For fun, I took a broom handle cut-off and sized it to fit in the extra hole behind the standard endpin. When I played the Bass it was way way louder and Deeper as well.

There is a difference when one or the other hole is open, better to keep them closed at all times, I think. I get a strange "wolfy" sound in the upper register on one of my basses when a hole is unplugged.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Now I suppose if the 'other' Endpin' (not exactly sure what to call it) was in there, would you have the standard endpin pushed up inside the Bass or pulled out entirely?

On one of my basses, I have the standard pin out 2 or 3 notches so that it doesn't rattle. On the other, I have a 4" length of drumstick with rubber tip all the way in.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Would the Bass be easier to play with the added hole further back in the Block towards the Back of the Bass or does that matter?

The added hole is about 1" from the back of the bass. I think it matters as the balance changes depending on where the hole is. That is why the bent pin in the regular endpin hole balances differently (to me, at least) than the Laborie pin in back.

The "eggpin" lets you experiment with different positions and angles to find which suits you and your bass before you drill.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Does the bent pin in the regular socket balance as well as the added Pin or does it matter?

For me, it is a different balance. With the hole in back, the bass wants to drop back on to you more in a forward facing position. In this position you do not have to hold the instrument up or balance it at all with your left hand. Check out videos of Rabbath to see what it looks like.

With the bent pin, the balance on my bass was a bit more traditional. If I rotated the endpin in the socket one way or another to varying degrees (rather than the pin angled straight back), that also changed the balance.

[RCWilliams]

we have seen instances where the second hole in the bass caused the block to crack. this was in less expensive basses, but they were cracked. th tilted end pin is a cantaleavered system that is why tit takes the weight of the thumb. it actually moves the center of gravity toward the player.

ken for those who don't want to drill but do want the lean, I developed a tilt block which is added to the bottom of the bass and does not cause the bass to be drilled if it gets broken it is much cheaper top fix than the lower block. it is in fact what got me started on the peg leg end pin variations.

[thedbassist]

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

we have seen instances where the second hole in the bass caused the block to crack. this was in less expensive basses, but they were cracked. th tilted end pin is a cantaleavered system that is why tit takes the weight of the thumb. it actually moves the center of gravity toward the player.

ken for those who don't want to drill but do want the lean, I developed a tilt block which is added to the bottom of the bass and does not cause the bass to be drilled if it gets broken it is much cheaper top fix than the lower block. it is in fact what got me started on the peg leg end pin variations.

The drilling isn't bad. If Hal Robinson(principal of the Philly Orch.), Robert Oppelt(principal of the National Symphony), Ali Yazdanfar(Principal of the Montreal Symphony) have enough trust to drill their basses then I think that says something about the process and the safety towards the bass. It also doesn't take any of the value away from the instrument.

[RCWilliams]

the percieved damage is in the eye of the beholder. there are at least as many who are oposed to the drilling of a second hole as there are "trusting". it is not the hole itself that causes the cracking of the lower blocks, but the cantaleivered nature of the tilted pin. it is not just under pressure in to a tapered hole with out a stop, but also has a rotational force applyed in that tapered hole similar to prying. the top back of the hole is the fulcrum and the center of the block near the end button hole is where the tip of the pin is applying a force outward. the problems we noted were in student basses, which generally are less expensive. some folks , like Ken Smith, seem very much into the conservation of treasured old basses, and might therefore find drilling any unesential hole undesireable. my thought is that if there are those who wish to drill their bass, the choice is theirs, I just think it's ok to have an alternative, and so did George Vance, and Mr. Laborie, when I talked with them at the last ISB convention in Oklahoma City.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by thedbassist

The drilling isn't bad. If Hal Robinson(principal of the Philly Orch.), Robert Oppelt(principal of the National Symphony), Ali Yazdanfar(Principal of the Montreal Symphony) have enough trust to drill their basses then I think that says something about the process and the safety towards the bass. It also doesn't take any of the value away from the instrument.

Hal and Bob do not have them in their MUCH more valuable and expensive Orchestra Basses. That was my point. They only have it for Solo. Why don't they have them in their Orchestra Bass which I assume is MOST of their Bass playing?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by thedbassist

The drilling isn't bad. It also doesn't take any of the value away from the instrument.

First off, sorry for breaking up your quote.

In my opinion for what ever it's worth to anyone is that drilling a hole in the Rib of an old English or Italian Bass or any other valued Antique DB will affect the value of the Bass at least to me who would have to have it repaired and the Block replaced for it to be as it was minus the missing wood of the Rib which would be gone forever.

Most Basses with this other hole used as Solo Basses by working Pros is their second, third or other numbered Bass in their collection. Show me someone drilling holes into a Montagnana, Maggini or Fendt and I will show you someone who needs some Jail time for the crime they have committed.

Just my opinion.

[anonymous12251111]

I tend to agree with Ken. I know of VERY expensive basses, that have Laborie holes drilled into them. I personally find them a real eye-sore to look at. I've found good results with just using a regular bent-endpin and putting it into the bass the original way, this still reduces tension from the thumb but I would not purchase a bass from someone that has or had at one point a laborie endpin, not my style. Also, if you're fortunate enough to own 2 basses, a orchestral and solo bass, drill it into the solo bass. The Laborie does not work for orchestral players at all. If you're like me, playing a 2 hour Bruckner Symphony on gut, you'll want your ass on a stool, but that's a different story.

[txstatebass]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

If you're like me, playing a 2 hour Bruckner Symphony on gut, you'll want your ass on a stool, but that's a different story.

Funniest thing I've seen all day! I do have 2 basses, an old plywood that I did get a second hole drilled and and older German flatback that I was about to get drilled. I say about because it is the first really nice antique instrument I have ever owned and I suddenly became reluctant to drill in it. On the market that means it does lose some value to drill another hole. Of course, I love the feel of the Laborie endpin, so I am looking to RC's tilt block as a reversable, low stress alternative.

[Jazzdogg]

I found a picture here:

http://www.bassworks.com.au/store/prod79.htm

And here's a brief article:
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/al...ins/Aug-03/780

[anonymous12251111]

That photo does not make me want to drill a hole in my new nice bass, thanks for confirming my own thoughts.