Ready for the first bass, who's Carlo Robelli?

[DrChill]

I'm looking around to buy my first double bass. I've been renting for a few months and decided that I like the sound, as an alternative flavor to the electric bass I normally play, and I'd like to keep playing it.

For what I've been playing (which is primarily archoring the piano in my band) I do mostly arco, but with a little pizz thrown in for grins. There is a realist on the bass I've been renting, and it really doesn't do the job of getting over the drummer, even (and especially) with my amp turned up to 11. So I'm ready to strike out, and get my own.

After reading as many noobie bass buying advice posts as I can find, it seems like I can get a resonable instrument to continue learning for around $1200. This is good because I can't really afford much more than that right now. On account of all the bowing and the penny pinching, maybe a hybrid would fit the bill. I'm really not much of a bass player anyway, even on electric, and the P-bass I have has sweet action, so I figure new or used, I'll have to budget in a bridge adjustment to make the strings better friends with the fingerboard. Also, I've heard that a fishman with a sans-amp driver is a great way to get that big amplified sound.

Anyway, I'm having a blastola just playing every bass I can find in central Texas, in and out of my price range. And I'm wondering if you always friendly folks can point out something I might be missing, or should consider for my particular case. Speaking of which, Does anybody have an opinion on the Sam Ash brand called Carlo Robelli. I played a $1,000 hybrid by that name and really loved the tone (for the money). They offered $100 off because there is a small dent/gash in the top about 1/2way up the tailpiece, and six inches from the edge. I'm kind of scared of top damage on account of budget basses supposedly having thin tops to start.

What is that, like, seven questions, anyway what do you guys and gals think?

[Michael Case]

I don't recommend the Carlo Robelli basses. Carlo Robelli is a Sam Ash brand, these basses are made in a factory in China that cranks out poorly made basses at cheap prices. I owned one for six months and then sold it for half of what I paid for it due to the repaired cracks in the neck heel and peg box (this happened before I owned it). I occasionally stop by Sam Ash to pick up stave paper and will look at and play a bass for a minute or two. They ALWAYS have some sort of damage. They aren't well made and are not in anyway set up. The fingerboards are painted black to look like ebony (and after a 1/2 hour of playing the bass your fingers will look like ebony too). When the paint wears off you'll find a piece of lumber not fit for a fence post. The boards are all knotty and the grain is all over the place so forget about having the FB dressed. The bridge adjusters are generally installed the wrong way, making it impossible to adjust the string height without channel lock pillars and a crew of five people. You have to practically remove the strings to make bridge adjustments.

I recommend you search this site, you'll find many good basses in your range or slightly higher priced, but the extra money is truly worth it. Look up Upton Bass, Strunal, or go to bassesonline.com. Also, use the classified section on this site for used basses, you'll find some Shen basses and others in your range. Craigslist is also good for finding used basses.

[DrChill]

I'm glad you mentioned Strunal, because I saw a 50/1 recently that was being sold for less than $800. Having read so many good things about this line I was pretty excited. It sounded fine on the finger, however, under the bow the low end of the sound just evaporated. Really disapointing, I mean even for the bottom of the Strunal line.

Then I saw that the dude who was selling it had done the set-up himself, "as he is a Luthier", and the bridge was cock-eyed so I could easily get my fingernail under the feet on the tailpiece side. I asked about that and he said as a "Luthier" that it's "not a problem" that the feet aren't flush. Suspect... So even at the steal of a price I'm really hesitant.

Other than the poor bridge seating (and lack of tone) everything else looked great. It did, however, feature an "ebonized" FB, as the Robelli had real ebony on this model.

So, can the tone be restored if the the bridge is cozy and is it worth the gamble? I'm leaning towards not so much. Maybe wait and find a better Strunal.

[Michael Case]

Yes, the tone can improve greatly with the bridge reset. It's something that happens if your not paying attention, when tuning the strings the bridge will be pulled forward just a little and if you don't fix it eventually it will fall. The "ebonized" board isn't so much of a problem, at $800.00 it's a matter of getting what you pay for. The thing about Strunal is they do cut a few corners to make a price point, but the instruments are built really solidly. An ebony fingerboard can still be crap and with the Carlo Robelli I bet it is. From what I have seen most ebony boards have a black dye on them (because pure black ebony is hard to get now). Underneath it could have nice straight grain or twisty knotty crap. If it's the latter, the board will never set-up well and will always be a headache.

[joel kelsey]

I recently purchased a "scratch and dent" Robelli hybrid from Scam Cash for 500 bucks. I bought this bass as a backup for my nice bass with the intention of never playing it acoustically at a gig. I will be using the robelli for super-dive bars (divier than normal) and gigs in blistering heat/humidity. It is a piece of junk. There were several annoying little problems with it, which would have really discouraged me if it was my first bass.
1. the sound is small and thin.
2. the strings that came on it were junk
3. the top is so shiny and smooth that the bridge can move around very easily
4. the bridge is junk. the adjusters did not work. the feet had to be sanded a lot
5. the screw that adjusts the endpin was too big so the bass kept falling.
6.the endpin is not removable, making a wheel unusable.

I spent 100 bucks getting the bridge fitted and holes fixed. Yes holes. It looked like someone had stabbed the bottom bout with a high hat stand. 140 on new strings. A friend and I fixed the endpin screw as well as the bridge adjusters. so for about 750, it is an okay deal. You can get something much better for 1200, like a Shen. Any bass from Sam Ash or Guitar Center will need professional help because they are set up by whoever. i would recomend buying something that is set up by a real luthier. DON"T BUY A ROBELLI!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I only have mine as a backup. I cringe at the thought of playing it. I am spoiled by my other bass I guess. Good luck and don't forget to post pictures!

Joel

[DrChill]

Holy smokes, what a mess. OK, point taken, thanks for the, "steer clear." It is funny because in that same store they had a DB listed for $2000 that was strung with A and D switched. Now seriously, who is going to buy that?!

Anyway, mike da mook was right about the ebony dye, my fingers had all black on them after playing it. It did sound good, to me at least, but I don't want to buy something that will inevitably fall apart. I want to make a serious investment and I like the thought that the owner is really only the steward of that instrument for the next person. But out of everything I've tryed, Kay, Englehardt, Strunal, etc the Robelli was the only one that was set up the way I want my bass. That was the only one I could play and have it sound really nice. (Was it just the bow?) So naturally, I tend to favor it, in spite of knowing that it is a bad long term investment.

So that begs the question, does one have to go on faith that thier chosen bass can be set up to play and sound to one's liking, even if it's not set up that way when one buys it?

And if so, when trying basses that aren't already adjusted to one's liking,what quality should one be looking for, tone, craftmanship, quality of materials, name reputation?

Or should I just keep looking until I find that rare instrument that hangs out at the corner of "good investment on a quality instrument" and "already set up with easy action"? I'd hate to pass up a gem just because my novice fingerboard technique couldn't hang. Should I have faith that a good bridge and a good fingerboard on a good top can be set the way I like it. Having never bought and set up a bass before I would really dig some words of wisdom on how much a good set up will change the playability of a potential purchase.

(ps, I am getting lessons and practicing on a rental to improve technique)

[Rayzorx]

+1 on the www.bassesonline.com tip. I've got one of the hybrid Eberles and after a good setup, it really sounds nice. And the folks there are the best!

[John Sprague]

So, can the tone be restored if the the bridge is cozy and is it worth the gamble? I'm leaning towards not so much. Maybe wait and find a better Strunal.

Any chance he'll let you show it to a real luthier? A poor set-up can easily make the tone go away, and the Strunal owners out there seem to be happy with their stuff. If this gentleman didn't see the need to make the feet fit, then where does he have the post, how's the nut, and so on and so on. If you want to keep this project under a grand, then a risk like this Strunal might be the smart move. Do you have a luthier you trust nearby?

[DrChill]

A local Luthier... unfortunately I do not know any, but I have seen the Austin listing in Gullihur's Luthier directory page. It recommends the dude who does work for Violins, Etc. The guys at that shop seem to really know thier stuff, so that might be a viable option.

The seller said that he'd be willing to give me a week long trial period. Perhaps I could ask him if he'd still take it back if I got the bridge adjusted...

Does anybody have a Luthier to recommend in Austin or really anywhere in central Texas?

[Michael Case]

Go for the week long trail period. As soon as you get the bass go to a luthier and see what they say. Set-up is the easiest thing a luthier can do to improve your bass. It may not seem like much, but you'll be surprised. Plus if you get the bass set-up and still aren't happy with it you stand a better chance of reselling it and getting your money back than with a Robelli.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by DrChill

Then I saw that the dude who was selling it had done the set-up himself, "as he is a Luthier", and the bridge was cock-eyed so I could easily get my fingernail under the feet on the tailpiece side. I asked about that and he said as a "Luthier" that it's "not a problem" that the feet aren't flush. Suspect... So even at the steal of a price I'm really hesitant.

He's not a luthier, he's a charlatan and/or a jackass.
He should be willing to let you take the bass home for a couple of days for a no-obligation trial. If he won't, dealing with him will be high-risk.
The first thing I would do is track down a reputable luthier, call him and ask if he'd be willing to give an opinion, and don't deny him the right to be paid. He shouldn't charge as much for a verbal as for a written appraisal. He will know where to look for other hidden problems. This should be part of any bass purchase you contemplate, given your inexperience. Then, bring over the Strunal and anything else you find.
It's not easy when you're starting out.
Good luck.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by DrChill

Does anybody have a Luthier to recommend in Austin or really anywhere in central Texas?

Eh? I thought there was even a dealer in Austin. Doesn't Mark Rubin work at a shop that sells basses? I vaguely remember something like that.

I'm sure there is one. I found this guy on Google.
http://slwise.home.texas.net/

EDIT: Doh, Mark Rubin works at Violins, Etc. I found out in an older thread (I search for austin in this forum). Definitely go there first.
http://www.violinsetc.com/ViolinsEtc/

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Eh? I thought there was even a dealer in Austin. Doesn't Mark Rubin work at a shop that sells basses? I vaguely remember something like that.

I'm sure there is one. I found this guy on Google.
http://slwise.home.texas.net/

Mark Rubin's day job is being the manager of Violins Etc. in Austin. At night he's playing around in a lot of contexts. Monster bassist, great guy, straight shooter. He had about 15 basses in stock, maybe more, when I was there in January. Everything from new Christophers to old three-string French basses to old American laminates on consignment. He's a sweet dude and that should be your first hang; buddy up to Mark and pick his brain.

That being said, I have a pal in Austin who was flirting with buying his first URB. We went to Mark's shop and my bud fixated on an American Standard that needed a lot of work, was on consignment.

I posted to the Austin Craigslist, asking, "Who's the best bass luthier in town?" Got about eight very thoughtful and heavily referenced (for the most part) replies. Six out of the eight said, essentially, "Don't go to anyone but Steve Wise."

They also said that he's not big on e-mail, to call him.

So, call Steve Wise (referenced above), ask him if he''ll help you out. Maybe ask Mark Rubin if he'll let you take a bass or two for Mr. Wise to assess/evaluate for you, too.

I'd reccommend planning on paying Mr. Wise generously, maybe more than he quotes you, for his opinions. He may be your luthier for a long time, if this works out for you.

Start out on the right foot. It'll relly pay off in the long run.

[scoggan]

Originally Posted by DrChill

Does anybody have a Luthier to recommend in Austin or really anywhere in central Texas?

The Orchestra Store, James Scoggan, 713-462-5725, 866-267-5725 in Houston.

[DrChill]

It's true, it's all true...

I've been hanging out at Violins etc, ALOT. And yes Mark is a very cool dude, as is Steve and Kyle. And they have more than a few instruments that are within my limited budget and ability. As a matter of fact, if I had to buy right now, I'd get the $1400 Christopher they have on consignment. Hmmm, but they also have a blonde Englehardt that is brand new and just beautiful. Although, being new, there is no romberg and coincidentally low Fs and F#s buzz. She is like $1500 and needs to be set up with an adjustable bridge.

Kyle, couldn't be nicer, also let me saw away on one and just kept feeding me different bows to try. Wow, until then I had no idea how easy it is to avoid the squeeks just by loosing the glass... wow. I'm definetly getting another bow with my bass, maybe Brazil. I'll go lurk in the bow forum for a while.

Also it's true, Steve Wise is THE dude to see in Austin. Or at least according to everybody I've talked to. I gave him a call and he said he'd be happy to give a potential purchase a look see. Here's my favorite part, he said, "bring it by anytime... between noon and midnight." I think that is a very cool to have an old dude in town sitting around, planing a piece of wood in the middle of the night, availabe to set up my bass.
And he lives on the south side where I grew up...

Well, OK, thanks for your input and comments, and I'll keep you posted as my search continues. I even took some pictures today that I'll put up shortly.

[DrChill]

NewBlonde Englehardt
2001 Christopher on consignment
Violins, etc. is my new favorite hang out...

[Michael Case]

Dems is some shiiiiiinnnnnyyyyy basses! But either one of them is a huge improvement ove rthe Carlo Robelli you were looking at. Good luck and have fun.

[glivanos]

I'm very happy with my model 50/4 Strunal laminate. It sounded good before I had it set up and since the set-up even better.

I would recommend Strunal for the money.

Originally Posted by John Sprague

Any chance he'll let you show it to a real luthier? A poor set-up can easily make the tone go away, and the Strunal owners out there seem to be happy with their stuff. If this gentleman didn't see the need to make the feet fit, then where does he have the post, how's the nut, and so on and so on. If you want to keep this project under a grand, then a risk like this Strunal might be the smart move. Do you have a luthier you trust nearby?

[DrChill]

Thanks for the tip, however, that bird has flown.

After I checked out the bass and posted my description of the instrument and the seller the dude stoped returning my calls. When I finally did hear back from him he said he had sold it. I really hope he wasn't giving me the silent treatment because he also reads this forum. Either way I'm not worried because I was always fair and honest about everything. It was never my aim to make anybody look bad, and I intentionally, diplomatically omited specifiic identifying details...

So the 50/1 Strunal is gone, which is just as well because I wasn't feeling it anyway. I recently checked out a very clean and well guarded 4/4 bass. The insides were impeccable, but were also free of the manufacturors sticker, and the seller doesn't know the make either.

It sounded pretty good to me but there are several issues that raised flags that maybe somebody can shed some light on. Primarily the bridge was clearly warped, that is had a distinct curve toward the fingerboard. I'm guessing a new bridge is in order.

Next I got distinct buzzing in various spots on the g-string from say... A# all the way up to D and probably higher too. Visual inspect from the nut down gave me the feeling that there are bumps and valleys happening. I could see this from the way light was reflecting off the shiny black ebonizing treatment. I'm thinking the FB needs planing, but the seller thinks it would be cheaper to simply replace the FB instead. That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm the first to admit that I don't know.

He agreed to take it to a Luthier, Steve Wise in Austin, so I will get his expert opinion. I don't have the expertise to recognize quality materials that can be fixed with a set up from junk. Being of unknown make I'm very interested to hear Steve's opinion.

Here's a little bity picture...

[Foamy]

I do a good amount of guitar and bass repair and setup for myself and friends, so I'll share this.
A friend of mine picked up a Carlo Robelli guitar off an Internet auction site.
It was a 335-style guitar in natural finish. It seemed OK. The build looked OK. The feel was OK. The price was right at $300. So...OK. I think I'd pick up a Turser over this one for sure.
He asked me to "fix the pickup". I looked at it, and the neck p'up was not affixed by one of the screws in its mounting ring. Hmm....I removed it and looked, and there was no WOOD there. Nothing! The hole was miscut. Bummer.
The fix was easy - I just expoxied another piece of maple from the inside of the body, and I was able to fasten the pickup.
And again, it was back to an OK guitar.
In my mind, I can't imagine such a guitar (and this one was factory fresh) passing any type of quality control. The pickup was literally hanging there.
TIFWIW