Shen Willow Flatback

[Stan Haskins]

I'm about ready to order a SHen sb200 willow flatback from Nick LLoyd's shop.

After speaking with Arnold Schnitzer, he warned me that the willow flatback construction would be a risk in our region (upstate/Hudson Valley, NY - Think cold dry winters and hot, humid summers).

The way I understood what Arnold told me, the flat back was subject to caving in in the first few years, and in the worst case, the bracing might need to be rebuilt . . .

Does anyone have any experiences (positive or negative) with these basses? So far, they seem to be the best instrument in my price range, I've yet to hear anything bad about them, and spending more will be too much strain on my family.

btw, I'm in no way implying that Arnold or Nick have given me any unreliable info. I know both of these guys have great reputations and neither is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I would just like some input from other bassists . . .

Thanks!

[Paul New]

I have one, but haven`t had it long enough to comment on its long term stability. It`s a nice bass though, no complaints so far.

[Mark Carlsen]

I think the point might be , new or old [Bass Wise] a flatback in the Northeastern part of the U.S. will be alittle more troublsome.
I am currently playing the Shen hybrid [SB-150] and I am a luthier...It's a great bass for the price.Remarkable tone and craftmanship ...but as a luthier I always caution clients about flatbacks..a different scene to deal with, although it can great when right. You prolly will be happy w. the Shen.

[Jazzman]

Having got rid of a flatback fin favor of a ply for reasons of reliability and durability, I feel obligated to say that plys are not always stable in the Northeast either.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by noisemaker

After speaking with Arnold Schnitzer, he warned me that the willow flatback construction would be a risk in our region (upstate/Hudson Valley, NY - Think cold dry winters and hot, humid summers).

The way I understood what Arnold told me, the flat back was subject to caving in in the first few years, and in the worst case, the bracing might need to be rebuilt . . .

Actually, what I said was that new flatbacks need to be humidity-controlled, especially in their first few winters. They are more prone to warpage and cracking than roundbacks. And a softer wood like willow is less resilient than maple and therefore a bit more of a risk. That's why it's important to maintain the humidity at a safe level. The conversation Noisemaker and I had was about the relative merits of a willow flatback vs. a maple roundback. The maple roundback is, of course, more expensive. In general, every decision we make requires a risk/reward analysis, and in this scenario I feel the maple roundback is less risky (and more expensive). My comments were in no way an indictment of Shen, whose basses I have successfully sold for about 8 years. In the interest of full disclosure, the maple Shen in question is in stock in my shop. But I advised Noisemaker to buy the willow bass from Nick, since he would save significantly on tax, and stay within his budget. I also advised him to take good care of it, especially in winter, to avoid having back problems.


Edit: Fixed formatting - C.F.

[Mark Carlsen]

Originally Posted by Jazzman

Having got rid of a flatback fin favor of a ply for reasons of reliability and durability, I feel obligated to say that plys are not always stable in the Northeast either.

Very good point, I try to tell my client's whatever kind of bass you have make regular visits to make sure the instrument is in tip top playing condition.A carved bass will need more visits,but even a plywood needs to be checked from time to time.How many visit's ? Twice a year for carved,and at least once a year for plywoods.This would include soundpost adjustments or change,checking for open seams,and making sure the bridge is straight and making full contact w. the top of the bass. Of course other things may need to be tweaked,but this is a start.The number of visits can vary from bass to bass, some are more finicky.

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I have played one 3/4 shen Willow flatback which by the way has a slight bulge and is fitted with an 'X' brace similar to old New England Yankee Basses. If I needed a new carved Bass, I would not hesitate for a moment to buy a Shen Willow Flat, carved, bulged or whatever. I have met Sam Shen and he likes things to be right. I trust his work as you can see I bought 2 of his basses and 2 Bows as well.

Now I have a humidifier in my office where I keep my Basses as suggested by Arnold to prevent my older Basses from cracking from the dry heat and sudden changes in the humidity.

Ken, this gives me a bit more confidence in this decision. While I am aware that this is a low-end bass in the bass world, this is a big investment for a guy on a teacher's salary with three kids, and I'm very anxious about making the wrong choice here.

OK, back to care and maintainance (I will check some newbie links,too).
Is 40% humidity (during the winter) a reasonable goal for the bass room?

Do you have to worry about the humidity going too high in the summer (we're not big fans of AC here, but if need be . . .)

Transport: I've always had ply basses and never thought twice about transporting them on their back in the back of a station wagon. Is this acceptable, or too risky?

Playing outside (for fun or profit): is it always a no-no?

Thanks for any input

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

In the interest of full disclosure, the maple Shen in question is in stock in my shop.

And I would advise anyone shopping around to check this bass out - it's definitely a good instrument, and really made me think that shen might be the way to go.

[Stan Haskins]

Well, Ken, by low end I mean cost, not quality . . . I hope . . .

[toman]

Durability aside, I wouldn't purchase my Shen again. In the seven or eight years I've had it, I've come across several older basses in the same price range that I would much rather own. Not to say the Shen is a bad instrument, but personally I don't care for it much. I feel the (possible) extra cost and extra maintenence of a little bit older bass is well worth it. I also question the long term integrity of the instrument, but that remains to be seen, although I should note that I don't take any particular good care of it, because it gets used. At this point I'm just waiting to see how it holds up without any special attention.

[toman]

^^^ All true. A good older bass for a comparable price is not going to be easy to find, but I do think it's possible, and IMO, spending even a little more is worth it in the long run. What's worrying to me at this point is that my Shen is looking like it will need repairs in the coming five years or so that will cost many hundreds of dollars at the very least, and probably a lot more. That, on top of the fact that I haven't found it to be that great sounding an instrument, and it hasn't improved much since I've had it like I figured it would. Now, I think the current Shens are rather different than mine, and perhaps better, but this is what I'm looking at. At this point I'd sell the Shen and get something better, but I'm not sure what I could even get out of it with the impending problems, plus, I'm curious just to see what will happen to it now. It's not a huge investment, and just from the viewpoint of a person who's interested in building and repairing instruments, I'd like to see just what happens to newer basses built with unusual techniques and (apparently) inferior wood. My prediction is that it's slowly but surely going to start imploding on itself (actually, it allready has), so it should be interesting. As of right now, I think the Shen basses should be taken at face value, which is, a relatively unknown entity and perhaps not the best investment.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by noisemaker

OK, back to care and maintainance (I will check some newbie links,too).
Is 40% humidity (during the winter) a reasonable goal for the bass room?

Do you have to worry about the humidity going too high in the summer (we're not big fans of AC here, but if need be . . .)

I'm no expert, but my experience in the Ohio valley (think 90% humidity in the summer, and 15-20% in the dead of winter) is that 40% should be fine for the winter. The big worry is drastic changes of humidity or extremes in either direction. For my purposes, I try to keep my instruments between 35-75% humidity. In the winter, I'll keep the humidity in the music room on the low side of good - about 35-40% - so that when i take them out to gigs, they aren't having to adjust too terribly much. I can't really speak with any authority on the high humidity issue as regards basses, but I can tell you that my piano hates high humidity, so I assume my basses probably aren't crazy about it, either.

Transport: I've always had ply basses and never thought twice about transporting them on their back in the back of a station wagon. Is this acceptable, or too risky?

Playing outside (for fun or profit): is it always a no-no?

Station wagon - I wouldn't worry about transporting them this way, but be careful about leaving them sitting there in extreme heat or cold. And playing outside should be okay (I'm assuming in warm weather), just avoid the direct sunlight.

[PB+J]

I have a shen 7/8 willow flatback and I love it--it has a very sweet, smooth sound that's gotten richer since I bought it. The middle register, from "E" on the A string through "F" on the G string, is especially sweet. It's held up well though one Wash. DC winter so far

Two things I don't like about it. First, the size--a 7/8 is just a little awkward at the kind of gigs I do, which is mostly small-time trio type gigs from "the real book." Second, it's got a rattle down around where the tailpiece cable goes over the heel. can't figure out where it's coming from.

Other than that, I think it's significantly better than any bass I tried in its price range. I want to avoid the "I just bought this and it's great" syndrome, but being as objective as i can, it seems like a lot of bass for the money.

[jmpiwonka]

Originally Posted by PB+J

I have a shen 7/8 willow flatback and I love it--it has a very sweet, smooth sound that's gotten richer since I bought it. The middle register, from "E" on the A string through "F" on the G string, is especially sweet. It's held up well though one Wash. DC winter so far

Two things I don't like about it. First, the size--a 7/8 is just a little awkward at the kind of gigs I do, which is mostly small-time trio type gigs from "the real book." Second, it's got a rattle down around where the tailpiece cable goes over the heel. can't figure out where it's coming from.

Other than that, I think it's significantly better than any bass I tried in its price range. I want to avoid the "I just bought this and it's great" syndrome, but being as objective as i can, it seems like a lot of bass for the money.

my 3/4 willow is real thumpy and big sounding in the positions by the heel too.
i think i know what rattle you are talking about and it seems to be dependent on my bass of where the endpin is.
i do have one seam that is open i think, i can feel a very small amount of air come our of it and sometimes i can hear it, i need to have that fixed, it looks like it has been glued before.

as far as durability, i'm happy with mine.
i made it through the winter with no problems. i'm in texas though and the low humidity in the winter was only about 25% in the house and it only hit that rarely. right now it is 37%, i don't use a humidifier.

i played some romanian basses at stores here and i don't think they really compare to my shen...i've had it about a year and it was made in '04.

[Jeff Bollbach]

Some good points here, especially by Ken. Kudos to Arnold for sending a sale elsewhere when there's nothing in it for him other than doing the right thing.

[Stan Haskins]

Yeah \, Arnold definitely seems like a standup guy and a great luthier.

Ken, I'm primarily an orchestra player and don't plan on taking any jazz or broadway gigs in the next few years (I'm just in the woodshed now, anyway.) I'm mcurious about your opinion regarding using a 3/4 as opposed to a 7/8 for orchestral purposes. I,ve found that I just like smaller basses better, and have honestly never played on a larger bass of any kind of quality (a couple of Romanian and Bulgarians that I REALLY didn't like.)

I plan on the 3/4, due to the price point and personal preference. Could this hold a player back? (I don't think they'll ever have a spot for me in the NY MEt or Phil anyway . . . )

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

make yourself comfortable and have fun playing.

Words to live by.

[Paul New]

Everybody with one of these basses and looking for the perect pizz string...try Animas. That is, if you like it loud, deep, dark but wildly aggressive. Excuse me, going out for a smoke.

[Stan Haskins]

How bout if I like dark, singing, powerfully projecting arco?

[jmpiwonka]

Originally Posted by noisemaker

How bout if I like dark, singing, powerfully projecting arco?

umm, that sounds like Pirastro Flexocor (new style, "regular" set with stark gauge E string) to me...