Snobbery, and why you're probably right

[JamieParkinson]

Hi,

I'm a British A-Level student and have been playing for around year, and I'm loving it - I play in a Youth Orchestra as well as doing jazz stuff. For this past year I've been using an unexceptional but decent plywood Artia Excelsior bass, and I'm just about starting off on the journey of buying my own.

Any bass, even the cheap 'BSO's is pretty expensive to me, but I like to think that I'll persevere in saving up... Looking around these forums, I've seen many many many threads in which some poor soul suggests buying a cheap bass and is then told that this is pretty much a cardinal sin.

I used to dismiss this as the snobbery of bass nerds who have too much money, but I have come to the realisation that (unfortunately for my pocket) you're probably correct. I still won't be spending as much as perhaps you'd really like, but I will do my best not to come away with a poorly made bass that will perhaps cause me more trouble than it's worth.

My revelation, if you will, was quite simple: I'm primarily a pianist and have played for 10 years - it's very much my instrument and technically I am light years ahead of where I am on the bass. I've had the fortune to have played on a very good quality English upright for my entire life and also play frequently on an exquisite Yamaha baby grand. People have been known to ask my advice on buying pianos, and I've essentially always said to buy a reputable brand, preferably not Chinese, and spend AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE. Playing on a bad piano is something I hate with a passion and feel strongly that nobody else should have to.

I've always seen this as Obviously Right, and anyone who questions it to be Obviously Wrong. My revelation, as you can probably tell, is that this is the exact same attitude you Double Bass pros have towards relative newbies buying basses, and hence, as much as I don't want to hear this, you're almost certainly doing the right thing in dissuading people from buying cheap crap.

Or maybe we're all just complete snobs who don't help anybody and we should all go and jump off a cliff. Or something like that.

Anyhow, whilst this wasn't a question, or anything interesting like that, I still thought I should let a load of strangers on the internet know why they are more correct than I had previously (cynically) thought. Maybe this'll persuade someone else you're right too.

Thank you!

[Roy Vogt]

It's common sense to buy the best instrument you can afford and equally important to work with a reputable luthier and have your bass set up for the optimum balance between tone and comfort. Like a lot of bassists who started playing DB in the middle of nowhere with no access to good bass shops and luthiers I was subjected to atrocious action on my DB for years before I met a decent luthier (Nashville's Jim Ferguson, also an amazing Jazz Bassist) who showed me how easy a DB could be made to play.
Now, we have an embarrassment of riches in that we also have Dustin Williams at Williams Fine Violins providing great instruments and service for Nashville.
Not all Chinese basses are BSO, Samuel Shen, Christopher and Lemur Music all offer nice instruments for the price.

[Boyakasha]

No one suggests getting a poor instrument, but being cheap doesn't necessarily mean something isn't good, especially for a beginner, if you have money to justify buying the best instrument available when you're still starting go for it, but if you can't even play I don't see the problem in buying a budged bass.

[drurb]

Jamie--

A very interesting post, indeed! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think it would be snobbery if folks here turned up their noses at any DB costing south of $10k or something akin to that. I've never seen anything of the kind here. What I do see is folks doing just as you said-- trying to dissuade newbies from buying junk. I've always been a proponent of getting the best DB you can afford (within reason).

As for China, well, there are some quality basses made in that country as discussed here. As Arnold the master warns in that thread, workmanship aside, one must be careful about the suitability of the wood used.

An interesting recent thread contains CCB owners' reviews. My take on that thread is that if you're absolutely strapped for cash, understand the pitfalls of a CCB, and are willing and able as a DIYer to complete the repairs and modifications that will virtually certainly be necessary, you can end up with a serviceable, if not very good sounding, instrument. That's not a path I'd recommend for many newbies.

In the end, there really are no shortcuts and there's no magic. A good instrument yields many rewards.

Originally Posted by Boyakasha

...if you have money to justify buying the best instrument available when you're still starting go for it, but if you can't even play I don't see the problem in buying a budged bass.

No one suggested buying the best instrument available. What's suggested is that one buy the best instrument one can afford. There's nothing wrong with a decent "budget" DB. It depends how one defines "budget." For example, I call a $1200 DB a budget bass. What folks here try to distinguish between is decent-quality "budget" instruments and junk.

Originally Posted by CHILDISHGAMBINO

I just bought a bass for 250 and it is probably one of the nicest basses I have ever played. Best neck I have ever played. I used to own a Peavey Foundation that costs about 150. ...

This is the Double Bass side of the house.

[JayB]

As per EVERY FREAKING TIME THIS TOPIC IS POSTED, please make sure this you are posting in the correct section.

I think the fact that the prices for quality ratio of guitar-family vs. violin-family instruments contributes to a bunch of confusion. I've gotten great, pro quality e-basses used for 300, an incredible acoustic guitar new for around $600, but my giggable but clearly student grade plywood clocked in at over $1500 after I got it set up, got a bow, case, pickup/preamp and wheel. This doesn't even include my string addiction, which I fully accept as discretionary purchases.

On guitar forums, people who say you need a 1k+ instrument to succeed are indeed usually judgmental types with expensive tastes. Poke around, ya'll will see that that is not the case here.

[JamieParkinson]

JayB, I'm posting in the DB section and as such have no particular interest in the price and quality etc of Electric Basses. If I've been wrong to post about buying a Double Bass in the Double Bass 'Basses' section, please point me in the right direction.

I think the complexity, sensitivity, and to an extent the lack of popularity of double basses increases their price while not ensuring quality.

DrUrb, thanks for the advice! I can see now that it probably isn't snobbery and is just people trying to help, but what I never said in my original post is that, from a newbie's perspective, it does *appear* to be quite snobbish, dissuading people from going cheap, when it really, really isn't.

I certainly won't be spending that much more than £1000 on a bass! Simply can't afford to.

[drurb]

^^^^^
I was agreeing with you! I understand that you were saying that you realize that what you've seen is not snobbery. JayB wasn't referring to your post in his comment about the wrong section. He was referring to CHILDISHGAMBINO who deleted his post in the interim.

Originally Posted by JamieParkinson

I think the complexity, sensitivity, and to an extent the lack of popularity of double basses increases their price while not ensuring quality.

Not sure what you mean here. To be sure, the complexity of building a quality DB does seem to set a floor on what it can reasonably cost. Still, especially at the lower price points there seems to be a very good correlation between quality and price. Like many other things, it's when you get into the upper echelons that people seem to disagree about when more $$$ gets you more quality. I think many of us have played some $15k basses that we judged superior to some $40k basses.

[JayB]

Jamie,

As DRURB said, I was referencing another poster. Read the quoted part of his post where that other cat was talking about a cheap bass he got.

I'm sure you don't care about guitars of whatever, just addressing a common point of contention/confusion. I don't care about pianos, but I can understand why your analogy fits and how it adds to the conversation. Lots of lurkers around here and this stuff lives on the in archives, so take in mind a lot of us keep that in mind when crafting responses. For what its worth, I was agreeing with you and adding another layer.

[Eric Hochberg]

When I bought my upright piano many years ago, I knew the make and model I wanted and found one used at a reputable local dealer. I paid around 60% of the new retail price. I could have bought a new/used so and so, maybe even a baby grand from a private seller for the same money, but had been down that road before and had ended up with a beautiful looking piece of junk.

The dealer told me he would always give me back what I paid in trade and gave me a warranty, which I never needed. 22 years later I'm still happy with this purchase, and the pros that play it always tell me what a fine piano it is.

Lesson - buy quality, no snobbery there.

[TroyK]

This is my second doublebasses forum. I felt the first was amuk with snobbery, not so with TBDB. We just get tired of the same post 3x each week from people who seem to want our permission to do something that our best advice is against. And people who think we're talking about Peavy Foundations.

I rented an Englehardt when I started, then I bought a NOS German Ply with tons of abuse in it's past. I don't remember what I paid for it, maybe $1,200. When I was ready, I looked for months and played lots of basses. My current bass was to be had for $5,500, though the asking price was $7k and I've likely put the difference into it in repairs. I remember struggling with spending the $5,500 and one of my mentors said "Why, you'd pay more than that for a car and not think twice about it. Which are you going to care more about?"

As tough as it was to pop for at the time, I've not ever missed that money and I've made that back playing years ago. It is a very difficult instrument to play and I can't imagine doing it on something that I felt was working against me.

By the way, I bought a used car for $10k last year and have already put $1k in it. Don't care about it at all, but I still love my bass.

[Roger Davis]

It's interesting to note that a lot of jazz pros/stars seem to be on the road with relatively modest basses. In fact often they don't know what there getting until they arrive at the gig. Different for classical arco-ists I would guess though. I started very happily with a ply bass and it was several years before I went all carved. Now I've finished a rewarding career in engineering I can indulge myself a bit - but only after having played a few different basses and started to get to grips with the compare and contrast thing. There is an English saying 'what do they know of cricket who only cricket know' meaning you've got to widen your knowledge to understand how your passion fits into everything.

I would recommend starting off on a hybrid (ply back, carved top and sides usually) and make sure that the bass is set up to your liking; that' very important. If you're ever my way in Oxfordshire you would be most welcome to drop in for a chat and a go on my basses, all of which show differing characteristics. Finally, if I'm allowed, could I mention Basschat, the English bass forum that has basses for sale rom time to time.

[PaulCannon]

I think a little "snobbery" is a good thing in this case, though I would add a caveat: particularly for a beginner, set-up is far more important than the quality of the instrument itself. A BSO will never sound like the real thing, but it can feel close if a luthier gives it the same time he would to a professional quality instrument. I've done a fair amount of set-ups for plywood Christophers and one Strunal, and with a little extra attention to detail I could get them to play very comfortably.

Developing a quality sound takes time, but working against a bad set-up can be very discouraging and slows the learning process considerably. Eventually, with enough time and interest, you will want to find a nicer instrument. Until then, investing a little extra money into your cheap bass' set up will pay big dividends.

[JamieParkinson]

Apologies to you JayB, thought you were addressing me - I get what you mean now, thanks! Sorry for my obtuseness.

DrUrb, I've got to agree that that sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense - what I meant was that the fact that DBs are so much more complex to make and sensitive to, for example, quality of materials, as well as the fact that there isn't so much money in building them due to the smaller market makes them more expensive. If there was a bigger market, I'd guess that there'd be more competition between manufacturers and hopefully superior products.

I should also clarify my use of language - I used the word snobbery as a headline, if you like, and I do agree with pretty much everything everyone has said (not that anyone's disagreed with me, but I think I should expand on what I said earlier). I really mean the attitude that could come off as snobbish of many TBers who advise against buying super cheap BSOs. That's totally not to say that you can't get a decent bass for not that much money, or that you should start out on something really good.

For what it's worth, I'll be getting something cheap/budget and modest and anything else you want to call it, but I definitely won't be getting the 'easy option' of a BSO and regretting it.

Thanks again!

[LouisF]

You might look into Stentor basses in England. Though Chinese made, they are pretty dependable student/conservatory level instruments

Louis

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by JamieParkinson

If there was a bigger market, I'd guess that there'd be more competition between manufacturers and hopefully superior products.

I would suggest that if there was a larger market there would be better quality and choice among student and modest working instruments. I think that fine instruments would be the same. For one thing some very impressive percentage of them never leave the market, they just pass from owner (or as someone once told me "stewards") to owner and keep getting better, unlike things like cars or electronics. So the inventory on that end isn't ever getting zero'ed out requiring new ones to be introduced and among what is already a niche (doublebassists) the really fine instrument market is even nicheier.

But, if there was room in the market for 50,000 new working quality instruments every year (which I would guess is close to the BG market or certainly the guitar market), then I agree that there would be more people putting quality offerings out in the $2k range.

[JamieParkinson]

Completely agree with you there - of course, top level stuff in most fields isn't really about competition and whatnot, just making the best instruments, usually in very small quantities.

[drurb]

Wow, 15-- now 16 posts of interesting content and everyone agrees!

[nicechuckh]

Even tho because of circumstances, I am a CCB owner, I argree with this thread too. I was lucky Chucky and wound up with a good bass that I truly enjoy and enjoyed setting it up other than the soundpost lol, but it could have been a horror story. I recommend playing a bass before buying, trying as many as you can etc. tho if a rental isn't available, I still can't say it's better to go a couple years without playing rather than having an instrument in your hands. It does still get to me when someone who has probably never had any experience with one says that a $500 bass is trash, not worth having, because all of them aren't. But because some get decent basses, there's no way to tell if another one of the same brand will be well made or not, plus not everyone would want to file the nut etc. I am thankfull for the DB I have and enjoy it every day, but if you can play before you buy, and if you can afford one from a reputable maker, or rent one while you save to get a good bass, that for sure is the best way to go IMHO

[Matthew Tucker]

When you consider that the cost of the raw materials in a $30,000 bass and a $1500 bass isn't all that much different, what sets them apart?

Its the hand of the maker, the time and care put into it.

So if you buy a cheap bass straight out of the box, you'll get a cheap setup too. No two ways about it. Therefore, bass will not sound optimally, and will not be as easy to play as it could be ... two BIG turnoffs for a new player.

I find, both these problems can be addressed quite successfully, even for a CCBSO, but it's not real cheap, if you spend on setup and repair, and you probably might as well have put that extra toward a better bass in the first place. Unless you inherited the bass for free - which some people, do.

IME buying secondhand from a reasonable player who is upgrading can mean that you might get some setup work for "free", in that the player has already spent money on it.

[nicechuckh]

Good point, buying secondhand, a bass already set up is a very good way to go. The only money I spent on set up, other than new strings was that I found another bridge for mine that works perfect, and got a great deal on it.