Spelling help?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Does anyone know for sure which spelling is correct for Busseto or Busetto or maybe Bussetto?

Pollmann lists it as Busseto but under the Italian maker with a similar name I have seen it as 'Giovanni Maria del Busetto'.

So, is it '2-Ss and 1-T' or '1-S and 2-Ts' or 'two of each'?

Also, does anyone know for sure the origin of the lower rounded Corner and the Name we use for it today? (is that two separate questions in one?)

So that's a Spelling and an Origin question, right?

If I really really knew the answer, I wouldn't be asking. Just being honest here up front..

Is the German spelling different than the Italian spelling? What's our excuse then?

[hdiddy]

I believe it's just 1-S, 2-T's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass

I have a Christopher Busetto myself, and would like to know the origins as well.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

I believe it's just 1-S, 2-T's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass

I have a Christopher Busetto myself, and would like to know the origins as well.

So the Chinese copy company knows more than Pollmann that makes them? Just a thought!

[KSB - Ken Smith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busseto

http://cgi.ebay.com/Busseto-Model-An...QQcmdZViewItem

Are we talking Cantonese or Schezuan?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Both Spellings exist. Problem is, which one is really for the Bass? Both?

http://www.google.com/search?q=origi...ient=firefox-a

http://www.google.com/search?q=origi...ient=firefox-a

[KSB - Ken Smith]

searched as Bussetto as well; http://www.google.com/search?q=origi...ient=firefox-a

Maybe it's all the same meaning but spelled 'phonetically' any way one likes. You think?

[MingusAmongUs]

Google maps has the town of 'Busseto'

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...17323&t=h&z=12

[hdiddy]

But there is also a "Busetto', however 'Busseto' is closer to Cremona tho.

[Mark Carlsen]

Vanna... I'll take 2 T's and an A....

[Uncletoad]

Are we sure the origin of the word of the ornament is Italian?

Bussetto is possible in Italian but not all that common, Busseto is more likely in Italian and Busetto would be weird or rare in Italian.

If I had to guess I'd say Busseto from Italian spelling but I routinely see it spelled Busetto which doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[MingusAmongUs]

The plot thickens....
I expect nobody really knows, and maybe nobody ever will, Knowing what (little) I know about names and spellings. I have a friend by the name of Fiorella. Says it translates to "little flower", but Italians will argue all night long about it. It's not spelled the same way as the literal translation. Different regions, spanning time, careless record keepers at Ellis Island, etc.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Are we sure the origin of the word of the ornament is Italian?

Bussetto is possible in Italian but not all that common, Busseto is more likely in Italian and Busetto would be weird or rare in Italian.

If I had to guess I'd say Busseto from Italian spelling but I routinely see it spelled Busetto which doesn't make any sense to me at all.

So the Pollmann website is right then I guess, Busseto. I always thought it was tt, Busetto or even both Bussetto but you being the resident Italiano, I guess you have a point.. lol

Also, if it's an Italian word originally, why is it that the Busseto corner is mostly used by the Germans (as well as copied by Prescott and his school of makers)?

I see Gamba, Violin and Guitar/Cornerless shapes by the Italians on the Basses but have yet to see a confirmed Italian Busseto. Why is that?

[LouisF]

Another complication (and this is just a guess) might be that in the old (up until about 4 or 5 years ago) German alphabet the Gothic "s" looked like an "f" and has since generally been translated with two ss since the change. Pollman (I believe) used to be spelled with an umlaut (..) over the "o", and the proper "translation" of that into modern spelling would be "oe"
(and pronounce sort of like "Pearlman").

Just a guess.

Louis

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Pollman (I believe) used to be spelled with an umlaut (..) over the "o",

i give you some for further usage:
öööööööööööööö
ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ



"(and pronounce sort of like "Pearlman")." thats right

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Busetto would be weird or rare in Italian.

Why?

Cornetto
bennedetto
vai a letto

That's a really common spelling pattern

IMO Busetto is FAR more likely to be the italian spelling.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Why?

Cornetto
bennedetto
vai a letto

That's a really common spelling pattern

IMO Busetto is FAR more likely to be the italian spelling.

Ok on the Italian thing, but I can't tell who's correct.

Also, I have never seen a confirmed Italian Bass with Busseto/Busetto corners before. All that I have seen of original makers have been from the Bavarian/Mittenwald School from Klotz, Seitz, Hornsteiner, Pollmann and the Prescott Yankee gang who copied the Bavarians as well as all of Germany using it on occasion.

Being that this shape is used more by the Bavarians/Germans than anyone else wouldn't the German spelling be more correct for the Shape as BuSSeto as used by Pollmann rather than the Italian if it's correct as BuseTTo?

[Brent Nussey]

I certainly don't know more than anyone else here, but it's my understanding that Busseto(?) corners are named for the maker Giovanni Maria del Busseto. The famous example of one is the one Rainer Zepperitz used for many years in the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I'm sure Ken will tell me it's an Austrian bass made in the late 1800's or something. Anyway, after his retirement, no one in the orchestra wanted to buy it, so a guy in Japan bought it and lends it to Kazuo Okuda, who has some information about it here:http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ultra...m.infoie..html

Mr. Okuda spells it Bussetto; my guess (unless there's a label inside the bass-yeah right...) is that the correct spelling should be that of whichever town Giovanni Maria worked in. And my guess on that is the one near Cremona, Busseto. I'd never thought about this before.

Brent

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brent Nussey

I certainly don't know more than anyone else here, but it's my understanding that Busseto(?) corners are named for the maker Giovanni Maria del Busseto. The famous example of one is the one Rainer Zepperitz used for many years in the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. Though I'm sure Ken will tell me it's an Austrian bass made in the late 1800's or something. Anyway, after his retirement, no one in the orchestra wanted to buy it, so a guy in Japan bought it and lends it to Kazuo Okuda, who has some information about it here:http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ultra...m.infoie..html

Mr. Okuda spells it Bussetto; my guess (unless there's a label inside the bass-yeah right...) is that the correct spelling should be that of whichever town Giovanni Maria worked in. And my guess on that is the one near Cremona, Busseto. I'd never thought about this before.

Brent

Yes, I have seen that Bass and read the story. I just looked his name up in several books and found some conflicting data and spellings. Bussetto, Busseto, Buseto, and BuFsetto on a label dated 1660.

It was believed by some that he was the teacher of Amati in the 16th century at first and then that there were two makers, I and II with the first being the elder (1535-1580 and the latter being possibly related listed as '2' (1640-1681). A third publication claims the elder dates are completely false regardless of a label dating to 1545 in Cremona which even predates the work of d'Salo.

How many false Maggini and d'Salo claims have we heard of as well as Amati, Testore, Montagnana, Panormo and many other famous names.

This is all 'wishful thinking' at the least if not deception. Gio. Maria del Bussetto is believed to have started in Brescia and moved later to Cremona all within the 17th century, the later dates mentioned.

If you study the history of the Bass country by country and look closely at the Bass in question, you must come to the conclusion that it is more likely it is Germanic than any other possibility. The maker Bussetto (or by any other spelling) and the Busetto/Busseto lower rounded corners are not connected in my mind. At least I am not convinced. If a style was used in a country, we usually see more than one example of it. The Guitar/Cornerless form was born in Northern Italy from what we can see and immigrated to Spain. This is one example but a very good one because it was used by many makers over many centuries.

The lower rounded corned has only been seen on original German instruments (or Yankee copies) with the exception of this Bass mentioned above which I think is not an exception because it is Germanic as well.

That is one huge Bass and dated 1660? Who here has seen Basses, several of them from that period. What condition are they in? Is that bass and that date even a possible match?

Also those sound hole are Central European in design, not Italian.

Is Bussetto the Maker (regardless of spellings) and the Lower Rounded Corners by the same or similar name even related?

Please, prove me wrong!

[Brent Nussey]

Well, I'm sure I can't. I don't care too much about it, myself. Though I would like to say that I'm glad you do, and are actively trying to uncover this information and are sharing it with us, not to mention caring for and restoring the instruments that come through your hands.

As to the Bussetto thing, I don't think it matters if the Zepperitz bass was made by Giovanni or not. If the style of bass corners came to be called "Busseto" because people thought that the earliest basses with those corners were made by Giovanni Maria del Busseto, then the spelling should follow whatever the correct spelling of his name was. It doesn't really matter if they were right or not, that's where the idea for the name came from. Why don't you call up the Pollmans and ask them why they call their basses "busseto"? If they say it's named for Giovanni, then that's who it's named for, whether correctly or not. At least it solves the spelling riddle.

Or maybe not. That was a long time ago, Italy wasn't even really a country in those days. I wouldn't be surprised if the spelling of the town has been different over the years. So which do you use?

Maybe if you feel strongly enough about it, you should try to come up with a better name with a more set spelling that will catch on and replace all the ambiguities of "bussetto". But I bet it'd be an uphill battle....

Brent

[Ike Harris]

My parents were genealogists in later life. They maintained that, although people's surnames may have come from towns or regions of their home countries, a person may choose to change the spelling of their name on the basis of education or social status, etc. You could go through a lineage of a family and come across any number of spellings and still be within the same direct family line. So it's not surprising that you would find discrepancies related to a maker's name or town names.

Ike