Steel strings = Am Standard & King Basses

[truckplayer]

Were American Standards and King Basses always built to handle any type of string including steel OR were the construction of the basses modified to handle them? If so, approximately what year where they changed?

[Jake deVilliers]

I'm not an expert on those basses but I believe they ceased production just at or before the advent of steel strings and were never made with thicker tops. The two websites below may offer some more info on the subject.

http://www.hnwhite.com/string%20page.htm

http://www.hnwhite.com/Cleveland%20i...s.htm#American

[MollyKay]

I posted this answer, to this same question over at BBP.

Hope it helps...

I’ll try to answer this based on my knowledge and observations…Gut strings were the only string choice until the early 1950’s when steel strings were made available to the bass world. With the wave of rock-n-roll in the early 50’s basses had to be louder, amplified and hence reinforced to with stand the higher tension of steel strings. It is pretty well know that Kay changed something in the plywood after 1939 going from three ply tops to five ply tops. And then again in the 1950’s they change how they sandwiched the plywood (glue and grain direction) to make it stronger for the increased popularity of steel strings.

As far as American Standard or King, the very early King basses were built like tanks. There is an ad from 1935 that shows a portly man standing on a top of a King Bass and I believe the tops were built that strong. The early King basses have very thick tops and back plates, almost 7/16” thick by our measurements.

I am not clear if AS changed any thing in their production for steel strings. In my collection I have three very early AS basses and they all seem to be built consistently except for a few finishing details. The later models from the 1950’s seem to be built just as well, so my observation is there is not much change in the AS manufacturing of the basses or the plywood…but again AS only made approximately 3,000 basses verse Kay’s 30,000 or more basses.

The biggest factor to the strength of the bass may have more to do with the raw materials that were available during the four decades of manufacturing. If we look at history and what raw materials were available right after the depression era are wildly different then what was available in the modern era of the 1950’s. I feel the material used to manufacture the basses has more to do with their longevity and sound then the manufacturing process, which remained pretty consistent. Of course how much a bass was played, how it was stored, how well the maintenance and repairs were done over its lifetime, has much more to do with how it looks, plays and sounds today then the day it was assembled.

[Phil Rowan]

Different maker, but my '38 Kay's back and top are pretty thick. Would be cool to compare to an AS bass.

[MollyKay]

Yup…there are always exceptions to break the rules. Just when I think I know something about these great vintage basses something comes along to muddy the water. My 1937 Kay M-4 and 1937 Kay O-100 have a three ply top, beyond that I can not say with any authority.

And to compare a 1937 Kay and a 1937 American Standard, I can do that and love both basses for different reasons…but then I love all vintage basses.

[Wallyphonic]

Gut strings were the only string choice until the early 1950’s when steel strings were made available to the bass world.

Did they really have steel strings in the early 50's? I thought it wasn't until the 60's.

[MollyKay]

I am sure Paul can chime in as he was around in those days and can most likely tell exactly when steel strings came into fashion.

For now here is Wikipedia with the answer…

Prior to the mid-20th century, double bass strings were usually made of gut, but since that time, steel strings have largely replaced gut strings, because steel strings hold their pitch better and yield more volume when played with the bow.[7] Gut strings are also more vulnerable to changes of humidity and temperature, and they break much more easily than steel strings. Gut strings are nowadays mostly used by bassists who perform in baroque ensembles, rockabilly bands, traditional blues bands, and bluegrass bands [8] Gut strings create the dark, "thumpy" sound heard on 1940s and 1950s recordings. The late Jeff Sarli, a blues upright bassist, stated that "starting in the 1950s, they began to reset the necks on basses for steel strings", and double bass players switched from gut strings to steel strings.[9] Rockabilly and bluegrass bassists also prefer gut because it is much easier to perform the "slapping" upright bass style (in which the strings are percussively slapped and clicked against the fingerboard) with gut strings than with steel strings.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by MollyKay

I am sure Paul can chime in as he was around in those days and can most likely tell exactly when steel strings came into fashion.

Damn, Woman....that really hurt. A lot.

An old guy told me somewhere around '59 as he remembers.

[MR PC]

I dunno.....wasn't Thomastik making steel strings for violins in the 1920's? If so, there probably were some bass string sets produced early on as well. Maybe Francois knows.

FWIW, I have two pre '50's USA ply basses that do fine with steel, and have been doing so for many years. No structural problems.

[Steve Swan]

As Paul Warburton said, about 1959 is the date that I've heard most often for steel string introduction. In my experience tihe H.N. White instruments, the King Moretone basses seem far less dramatic in the evolution of lighter to heavier construction, maybe having much to do with the somewhat narrower body dimensions than the American Standard. All of the late 1930s - early 1940s American Standards that I've played were much lighter and resonant in feel as well as more free and rich in voice than the late 1950s - mid-1960s examples.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

As Paul Warburton said, about 1959 is the date that I've heard most often for steel string introduction. In my experience tihe H.N. White instruments, the King Moretone basses seem far less dramatic in the evolution of lighter to heavier construction, maybe having much to do with the somewhat narrower body dimensions than the American Standard. All of the late 1930s - early 1940s American Standards that I've played were much lighter and resonant in feel as well as more free and rich in voice than the late 1950s - mid-1960s examples.

I've got one American Standard from 1939 and another one from the mid to late 50's. Same endpins now in both and when I weighed them, both came in at about 23 lbs. each.

[Steve Swan]

Mike,

I know that you are a big fan of these basses as well. How would you characterize the tone and feel of the early ones compared to the late ones, assuming same genral level of playing time and condition? American Standards are hands down my favorite domestically made plywood bass.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

Mike,

I know that you are a big fan of these basses as well. How would you characterize the tone and feel of the early ones compared to the late ones, assuming same genral level of playing time and condition? American Standards are hands down my favorite domestically made plywood bass.

I'm familiar with about 5 or 6 of these basses. My 2, a couple that Barry Bales has owned (or currently owns) and another one here in the same county.

The 2 Bales has owned are about the same period as my older one 1938-1940. He now owns one really early, about #167 or so, and another from the mid-to-late 50's like my second bass. Barry now owns about 6 or 7 basses total and I don't think he has found a setup of strings that suits him for his old AStandard yet, to enable him to carry it around and use it pretty extensively. He speaks a bit about this in his description on his newly established website.

The thing that I've seen as other Standards came through Ron Shuffler's shop here at home, is that if you work on the soundpost position and then the strings, these basses all seem to have the potential to be good, big, volumous and (IMHO) desirable basses. I remember hearing one that he had that sounded pinched, tight and low volume and when I played it a month or so later, thought it was a different bass altogether. Tons of volume and tone.

At this point, my mid-50's bass might have the potential to out-do my late 30's bass. The latter bass is big and deep, plays easily and it has basically had nothing done to it since arriving at my house than changing strings and the endpin. It still has the same old, crappy adjustable bridge on it that was there when I picked it up outside Clevland, OH, from the Ebay seller (an ER nurse who knew nothing about it at all and didn't play).

Kent Blanton has played it in it's current configuration and said it's one of the best AStandards from that time period (50's) that he has ever played.

I just had to change out some guts on my old bass this weekend. The ones on it had been there for about 4 years. It'll take a few days for them to settle and I have a jam lined up for Thursday night to work them over. We'll see what happens then.

In my personal opinion (which takes in my personal preferences for setup and strings, Garbos or guts) there is something about the size of the boxes (bodies) on these basses, along with the extra string length, that gives them a bit of something extra than happens with Kays. No disrespect to Kay basses or their owners, since I've played some of those that are really killer as well.

[truckplayer]

Good insight on American Standard basses. I enjoy reading them!

Any further guidance on using steel strings on earlier vs latter models on Am. Standard and King basses would help me.

thanks

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by truckplayer

Good insight on American Standard basses. I enjoy reading them!

Any further guidance on using steel strings on earlier vs latter models on Am. Standard and King basses would help me.

thanks

I realize we sort of derailed your original thread. Sorry.

My experience has been this. I played steel strings from the fall of 1990 until about 2006. First on a 1947 Kay M-1 and then on my older American Standard #731.

Originally, I used Thomastik Spirocores. In the mid-90's I began using Helicores, the pizz version. Later, I switched to the Helicore Orchestral Mediums.

On the both Kay bass and the American Standard I had neck resets done, due to the joint beginning to loosen and the action gradually increasing as the necks became looser. That one set of Helicore Orchestral Heavies were a factor in the neck reset of my American Standard.

I take care of my instruments, but both of them had lived unknown lives prior to my acquisition of either bass. So, earlier, maybe less caring owners could have been a factor in both of these needs for neck sets, as well.

I know where the Kay in now, about 1.5 hours from me, and know the owner. This lady is still playing steel strings of some sort and has experienced no further neck sets. She has owned that bass since about 2004-2005.

A lot of the American Standard owners that I know, are playing guts (or a combo of guts and steels) or the simulated guts (Velvets, Innovation Silvers, Kolstein Heritage, etc.). This seems to be a preference for the bluegrass players. They're looking for a percussive thump, rather than top end and sustain. And considering this, I know I speak for only a small segment of the American Standard owners.

I do know I haven't had any issues regarding the neck joints with either of my basses, playing guts or simulated (lower tension) strings. That's my choice, due to my own preferences, but I think that the lower tension strings are a factor in helping to keep my neck joints healthier.

Hope this helps in some way,

[Steve Swan]

Mike,

Thanks for all of the good information. I only play gut strings and the real test for me is if a bass will be responsive in a musical way to a plain gut A string instead of a silver wound A. The 1939-40 examples that I've had or borrowed for a bit all did really well with the plain gut A string. None of the late 1950s or 1960s era American Standards sounded quite as good with this plain gut A string. These American Standard basses are pretty amazing no matter what the era of manufacture. I could never put up with a Kay's relatively weak low end again. The American Standard is always my first choice as a festival bass.

[alavakian]

My first experience with metal strings was around 1963 when I purchased a Kay bass. It was shipped with metal strings. I do not know the brand. I had a bad experience in that the strings started breaking, one by one on the first gig. I replaced with an extra set of Artones (gut) and swore off metal strings for quite a few years until I was introduced to Thomastiks by a felllow bassist. Now I use Spirocore (weich) exclusively on both my basses. On my old carved German bass it was necessary to reinforce the neck.

[Paul Warburton]

The first steels I ever put on a bass were "Super Sensitive" and boy did they suck.