Sticky

[Jason Sypher]

Isn't it time for a "why you don't buy a cheap off-brand bass for any reason" sticky. This forum is absolutely clogged with the same subject day in and day out. We used to talk about basses here?

[eerbrev]

+1

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

I have an actual question regarding price to bass ratios, though:

Is a $1,500 Shen ply comparable to a 100-year-old carved, French bass?

In another year or so I'll be in the market for one and I wanted to start educating myself now on bass qualities.

For instance: My current bass is the one I'll be using in an audition for the youth philharmonic on Monday and the G and E both rattle hard when I really dig in and go triple-f.

My questions are: Would this happen on a Shen? And would it happen on an antique? I've always heard old basses are best, but I've assumed for the tonal qualities of the basses in specific, meaning that you're paying for the sound that one bass makes, and that's why they're expensive.

Performance-wise, though, do you really get what you pay for when you buy a bass that old? As in, do you have as many wolf notes and rattlers on an old bass as you would on a new one?

[Ben Mitchell]

The answer to your question is sort of shaded in the sense that every single bass is different. One very old italian may play terribly compared to a brand new bass with the same wood.

Although the difference between laminate and carved wood is great, playability all depends upon the quality of make.

What your paying for is essentially wood. Quality of make can have a deciding power on price, but not always. Really, the value of a bass all depends upon what its worth to you.

Hope this helped,

Ben

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by BassMaster65

...playability all depends upon the quality of make.

Quite true! In my "BSO"s thread, I talked about some of the basses in my school orchestra. Some of them are playable, yes. They're ugly, they're mauled and gouged, but they're playable. The thing about them is, they're horrible quality basses and sound like somebody made them out of cardboard. Our director paid $1,000, on average, for them, though, which was an incredibly stupid buy considering the eBay basses are worth more than our hunks of junk.

I believe our director thought the money you pay for a bass is a direct gauge of its quality. Is this really true for higher-level basses, though?

EDIT: Your edit answered this.

My next question would be: Do you think a 16 year old bassist would have the knowledge of tone and sound to determine what a bass is worth to him in dollars? Or at what point do you think I'd know?

[PaulCannon]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

Is a $1,500 Shen ply comparable to a 100-year-old carved, French bass?

No.

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

For instance: My current bass is the one I'll be using in an audition for the youth philharmonic on Monday and the G and E both rattle hard when I really dig in and go triple-f.

That's probably not a problem with the bass itself, it's a problem with either its set up or your technique. It's possible you need to have the fingerboard planed or the bridge re-cut or raised. Also, on the outside strings, if your bow is at too steep an angle you can force the string to vibrate into the fingerboard, rather than horizontally above it. There is no need to ever take the bow more than a few millimeters away from the next string.

[drurb]

Gosh, I'm glad somebody said it! Setup, setup, setup! That's how playability issues are addressed.

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Isn't it time for a "why you don't buy a cheap off-brand bass for any reason" sticky. This forum is absolutely clogged with the same subject day in and day out. We used to talk about basses here?

Yes! I suggest that the "sticky" point to several relevant threads already here rather than starting a new one.

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by PaulCannon

No.


That's probably not a problem with the bass itself, it's a problem with either its set up or your technique. It's possible you need to have the fingerboard planed or the bridge re-cut or raised. Also, on the outside strings, if your bow is at too steep an angle you can force the string to vibrate into the fingerboard, rather than horizontally above it. There is no need to ever take the bow more than a few millimeters away from the next string.

It rattled up at the nut, if that helps explain what I mean.

The E does the same thing. Is that set-up issue as well?

Originally Posted by drurb

Gosh, I'm glad somebody said it! Setup, setup, setup! That's how playability issues are addressed.

You would be proud of my on-the-spot bridge adjustment I made a few days ago! It doesn't feel like I'm squeezing pythons anymore!

[Patton]

ThumpPlunkJunk, I am currently shopping around for basses and have played many in the past few months. I am no expert (yet ), but I think it's not the age that determines how many issues you have with the bass, but how well it is set up and treated. A poor set-up on a great bass, and it's not going to be a great bass anymore.

I have played many old and expensive carved basses, including the Karr-Koussevitsky bass, but some of the best basses I have played have been modern plywoods that had a great set-up (my high school's 1960 Karl Hofner taking the cake--although I don't know how modern a 1960 bass can be called ).

You can make a cheap-o bass sound pretty good just by how well you play, and how well you play and sound can be helped immensely by getting all the kinks out of the bass. I have been Principal bass the past two years in my local youth orchestra and am now playing with professional classical and swing orchestras around my city as a senior in high school, and I play on an Eastman VB100 fully laminated bass that's been to hell and back. I've taken that bass to my local luthier countless times to check out a rattle, buzz, or other issue with it, and it now has a great personalized set-up. I'm looking to upgrade, but don't have a problem playing on this bass for a few more months. Get a great set-up, and there's nothing to hold you back (assuming there isn't another serious issue with it or you don't almost run over it in you driveway, which I've almost done twice. Don't do that)

I say you should take your bass into a local luthier and have them take care of that nasty rattle.

What kind of bass do you have now?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

Is a $1,500 Shen ply comparable to a 100-year-old carved, French bass?

In another year or so I'll be in the market for one and I wanted to start educating myself now on bass qualities.

For instance: My current bass is the one I'll be using in an audition for the youth philharmonic on Monday and the G and E both rattle hard when I really dig in and go triple-f.

My questions are: Would this happen on a Shen? And would it happen on an antique? I've always heard old basses are best, but I've assumed for the tonal qualities of the basses in specific, meaning that you're paying for the sound that one bass makes, and that's why they're expensive.

Performance-wise, though, do you really get what you pay for when you buy a bass that old? As in, do you have as many wolf notes and rattlers on an old bass as you would on a new one?

A lot of questions and a lot to think about. Both the Shen and old french bass are meant to do the same thing, make music! The variables are in the sound, ease of playing, etc. I like the sound of my student's Shen for jazz more than the sound of an old French bass I was considering buying at one point. Old doesn't necessarily mean better sounding or playing. Many old basses were designed in a way as to not work as well for our current playing needs. These need to be altered by a luthier to come up to contemporary standards.

As Paul said, your current bass may need a different setup to stop the rattling, or you may need to change your technique. Any bass can have performance problems when not set up well, or played well! A poor setup can affect quality of sound also. So when comparing basses, you have to keep all of these things in mind.

I've found older basses can have a different quality of sound than newer basses, and that sound is sought after. Obviously, many still buy new instruments for various reasons. Your best bet in looking for an instrument is to play as many as possible, sizes, shapes, old and new, to figure out what works for you. If you buy from a shop, try and get them to set it up so that it's comfortable to play before you hand over the money. Any major issues should be addressed so you know what you're getting into if you buy it, particularly with an older bass

Good luck!

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

My next question would be: Do you think a 16 year old bassist would have the knowledge of tone and sound to determine what a bass is worth to him in dollars? Or at what point do you think I'd know?

I think you'll know. How long have you been playing?

[Jason Sypher]

Sigh

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by Patton

ThumpPlunkJunk, I am currently shopping around for basses and have played many in the past few months. I am no expert (yet ), but I think it's not the age that determines how many issues you have with the bass, but how well it is set up and treated. A poor set-up on a great bass, and it's not going to be a great bass anymore.

I have played many old and expensive carved basses, including the Karr-Koussevitsky bass, but some of the best basses I have played have been modern plywoods that had a great set-up (my high school's 1960 Karl Hofner taking the cake--although I don't know how modern a 1960 bass can be called ).

You can make a cheap-o bass sound pretty good just by how well you play, and how well you play and sound can be helped immensely by getting all the kinks out of the bass. I have been Principal bass the past two years in my local youth orchestra and am now playing with professional classical and swing orchestras around my city as a senior in high school, and I play on an Eastman VB100 fully laminated bass that's been to hell and back. I've taken that bass to my local luthier countless times to check out a rattle, buzz, or other issue with it, and it now has a great personalized set-up. I'm looking to upgrade, but don't have a problem playing on this bass for a few more months. Get a great set-up, and there's nothing to hold you back (assuming there isn't another serious issue with it or you don't almost run over it in you driveway, which I've almost done twice. Don't do that)

I say you should take your bass into a local luthier and have them take care of that nasty rattle.

What kind of bass do you have now?

The label says "3/4 SR Bass", and I believe it was made by the same luthier I'm renting it from.

It's a good bass, it's got a big sound and it fills a room nicely, and aside from the rattle (and wolfies), there's nothing wrong with it. I like the sound of the bass as well. I don't know, I recorded myself playing it and I've set myself up in all different areas of my house to hear it best (hallways are great, I've found, but the maneuverability is a major drawback xD), and it's got a nice voice to it. It's not as smooth and buttery as the carved bass I play at school, but it's not as muddled and groggy, either (that bass just sounds "tired", I guess. Like she doesn't want to go on anymore, in a very depressed way. It makes the first movement of Sonata No. 2 by Marcello sound amazing, though). My ply's got a lot of projection and it's as if it really wants to belt every note out and the volume matches accordingly--I also play a little louder than I should on it, but it's hard not to!

How did the Karr-Koussevitsky play? It looks stunning and sounds terrific, but does the playability match that?

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Good luck!

Thanks.

Originally Posted by BassMaster65

I think you'll know. How long have you been playing?

Eight years. I just started lessons about six or seven months ago, though.

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Sigh

At least we're talking about basses!

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Sigh

You made me choke on the water I'm drinking. Haha

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

It's not as smooth and buttery as the carved bass I play at school, but it's not as muddled and groggy, either (that bass just sounds "tired", I guess. Like she doesn't want to go on anymore, in a very depressed way. It makes the first movement of Sonata No. 2 by Marcello sound amazing, though).

Huh? It's tired, groggy, but makes that piece sound amazing? Are you sure your not projecting yourself onto the bass?

[ThumpPlunkJunk]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Huh? It's tired, groggy, but makes that piece sound amazing? Are you sure your not projecting yourself onto the bass?

Possibly! I always think of an old man writing an elegy for his dead wife or children on that piece, maybe it's just that that instance was a day when I was most concentrated on creating that specific sound. Who knows?

[Ben Mitchell]

With eight years of experience, you should be able to tell. Just try as many basses as possible, from the very highest end, to the very lowest.

Ben

[Patton]

Originally Posted by ThumpPlunkJunk

How did the Karr-Koussevitsky play? It looks stunning and sounds terrific, but does the playability match that?

It's been a while since I had the opportunity to play it, but it seemed very nice. I was in seventh grade and had only been playing for almost two years when I got my hands on it. I was at the American School of Double Bass Summer Retreat with Mark Morton when I got to play it. Mark Morton taught a session on shopping for double basses, and had Aaron Riley in Grand Rapids, Michigan come to Cbus with a van full of basses for all the members at the retreat to play on. One of them happened to be the Karr-Koussevitsky bass.

It was definitely small, and I liked that! Very easy to navigate around the fingerboard. It's high register has a wonderful, sweet sound. And I remember it's open strings sounded quite good. Other than that, I don't remember much. I was too young as a player to get a whole lot out of it. Unfortunately.

To answer your question, I don't remember how well it was set up, but if I had $500,000 or more to put into a bass, I'm sure I could have gotten it set up VERY well. I hope, anyway.

[Eric Hochberg]

Jason Heath did a recital on the K-K bass and it's up at doublebassblog.org.

Has this thread gone OT enough for you, Jason?

[Jason Sypher]

Here's the sticky:

When shopping for a bass there are a few things to remember:

1. You will get what you pay for.

2. Plywood basses are fine. For older models American Standard, Kay and King are the best value for your money. For newer instruments Shen represents the best value, particularly for under 2K. Upton makes some solid instruments and have an excellent service record.

3. Carved basses are a significant step up in tone. Shen carved are a very good value. Beyond 5K there are other fine makers to consider: Arnold Schnitzer makes excellent basses ranging from about 5K to 10k. These represent a very good value.

4. There are some fine basses coming out of Romania and Hungary but there are some duds as well. Find a reputable maker and judge the basses individually and you will be fine.

5. German and French shop carved basses are used by amateurs and pros and can represent a very good value, particularly shop basses with a Juzek label. These range from 5-12K and some of the best bass players in the world use them as their working basses. Juzek is a shop name, there is no Mr. Juzek. Shop based on condition and sound.

6. Older carved basses often sound better than modern instruments. If you can't tell the difference than don't buy one.

7. Aluminum basses are fun to look at but they don't have the most sophisticated sound. Purchase one for outdoor playing or mojo but they won't be enough for your main bass needs.

Ok, that's all anyone needs to know.