string length and intonation

[shwashwa]

i'm not sure if i'm posting this in the right section or not.
i just wanted to do a little survey of people who play more than one bass, and the basses have different string lengths. i have one that has a 42" and one at about 40". while you would imagine at first (or maybe not) that the 40" would be easier to play in tune because the notes are closer together, i find intonation easier on the 42". so i got to wondering why this is. is it because i'm just more comfortable on that bass? perhaps. but i came up with another possible explanation and i thought i'd throw it out there to see if i'm the only one who experiences this. i'm thinking that in order to play "in tune" there's a certian degree of "out of tuneness" that's acceptable to still be considered in tune. lets just say for example for the purposes of explanation that it's +/- 1 cent. (its probably much less) so anywhere in this area from -1 to 0 to +1 cent would be percieved as "in tune" (it's probably a much smaller area) this becomes your "bullseye". on the bass with the longer string length the "bullseye" is bigger, or more spread out, than on the bass with the shorter string length, thus creating a wider margin for error and a bigger, more forgiving target to aim for with each note. an "easier" target to hit, if you will... conversely, on the shorter string length the target would be smaller than the bigger and be percieved as "harder" when comparing it to the big one. (not that it's actually hard at all, just maybe more difficult when compared to the longer length.) is this why i find it easier to play in tune on my bigger bass? or is it perhaps for other reasons? has anyone else experienced this or am i just crazy? has this topic been discussed to death already? if so, point me to the proper thread. thanks.

[drurb]

That's an interesting thought but you must take into account that, along with the bigger "bullseye" on the bigger bass, comes larger required shifts in getting from position to position. In the end, the percentages on the two basses are the same. I think it's not so simple because you must also take into account the accuracy with which humans can make targeted ballistic movements with the arms and hands as a function of the required distance.

[Eli_Upright12]

You statements seem to be true same reason thumb position is less in tune on average, string lengths about half of what first position is. I think witht he whole string length its probably yet another personal preference thing.

[shwashwa]

Originally Posted by drurb

That's an interesting thought but you must take into account that, along with the bigger "bullseye" on the bigger bass, comes larger required shifts in getting from position to position. In the end, the percentages on the two basses are the same. I think it's not so simple because you must also take into account the accuracy with which humans can make targeted ballistic movements with the arms and hands as a function of the required distance.

so do you have 2 basses with 2 different lengths or are you just speculating? no offense, i'm just wondering if other players who regularly play on 2 different basses can comment on whether they experience this or not. regardless of the shifting distance increase, the fact remains, that i play more in tune on the bigger bass. perhaps the bigger bullseye outweighs the greater distance required to get there for the reason that you state in your reply, humans aren't that accurate with targeted ballistic movements, so the bigger bullseye is an advantage. perhaps the increase in distance isnt as much a detrament as the increase in bullseye is an advantage, due to the fact that the arm was going to be moving at a great velocity (and therefore perhaps not so accurately) regardless of which bass is used. in other words, since the arm was going to move ballistically (and perhaps unaccurately) the increase in distance is percieved as negligable and the increase in bullseye size is percieved as huge, even though they increase in the same ratio.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by shwashwa

so do you have 2 basses with 2 different lengths or are you just speculating? no offense, i'm just wondering if other players who regularly play on 2 different basses can comment on whether they experience this or not. regardless of the shifting distance increase, the fact remains, that i play more in tune on the bigger bass. perhaps the bigger bullseye outweighs the greater distance required to get there for the reason that you state in your reply, humans aren't that accurate with targeted ballistic movements, so the bigger bullseye is an advantage. perhaps the increase in distance isnt as much a detrament as the increase in bullseye is an advantage, due to the fact that the arm was going to be moving at a great velocity (and therefore perhaps not so accurately) regardless of which bass is used. in other words, since the arm was going to move ballistically (and perhaps unaccurately) the increase in distance is percieved as negligable and the increase in bullseye size is percieved as huge, even though they increase in the same ratio.

Yes, I agree that you must weigh those factors. By the way, I didn't say that "humans aren't that accurate with targeted ballistic movements."

No, I do not routinely play on two different sized basses.

[conte2music]

I currently have a 7/8 shen willow with a sl of 42" and a 5/8 Wilfer from the late 20's with a sl of 39". I have no problem moving between these two basses. I previously had a German bass with a 41" sl and a czech bass with a 42 1/2" sl...this was much more challenging...I guess because they were much more similar I find intonation easier on my smaller bass, but I think it has little to do with the actual string length. The small bass has more focus and responds days faster than the shen. Likewise, if the shen was more focused I would probably have more success with intonation. But...the Shen sure has some power and bottom end!

[shwashwa]

interesting... i'd love to hear some more opinions...

[Eli_Upright12]

I have a little bit of a hard time going from my 3/4 size bass I think 41 3/4inch string lenght not positive to my Palatino EUB that is like 40.5, but I think there are other factors at play there.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by conte2music

The small bass has more focus and responds days faster than the shen. Likewise, if the shen was more focused I would probably have more success with intonation.

I think this is huge. I used to teach orchestra in school and was switching between 1/2, 5/8, 3/4 basses at school for demo purposes and 2 different 3/4 basses at home. I hadn't really thought about it until conte brought it up but I think it does relate, at least in part, to how fast the note develops. The ply basses at school were resonably easy for me because they had a really up-front tone but little sustain and the notes did not develop. My good 3/4 at home takes longer for the notes to develop but they are much more complex and have a much richer tone.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by fingers

...I hadn't really thought about it until conte brought it up but I think it does relate, at least in part, to how fast the note develops...

Neither did I. I'll have to listen for this. Thanks.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by shwashwa

i'm not sure if i'm posting this in the right section or not.
i just wanted to do a little survey of people who play more than one bass, and the basses have different string lengths. i have one that has a 42" and one at about 40". while you would imagine at first (or maybe not) that the 40" would be easier to play in tune because the notes are closer together, i find intonation easier on the 42". so i got to wondering why this is. is it because i'm just more comfortable on that bass? perhaps. but i came up with another possible explanation and i thought i'd throw it out there to see if i'm the only one who experiences this. i'm thinking that in order to play "in tune" there's a certian degree of "out of tuneness" that's acceptable to still be considered in tune. lets just say for example for the purposes of explanation that it's +/- 1 cent. (its probably much less) so anywhere in this area from -1 to 0 to +1 cent would be percieved as "in tune" (it's probably a much smaller area) this becomes your "bullseye". on the bass with the longer string length the "bullseye" is bigger, or more spread out, than on the bass with the shorter string length, thus creating a wider margin for error and a bigger, more forgiving target to aim for with each note. an "easier" target to hit, if you will... conversely, on the shorter string length the target would be smaller than the bigger and be percieved as "harder" when comparing it to the big one. (not that it's actually hard at all, just maybe more difficult when compared to the longer length.) is this why i find it easier to play in tune on my bigger bass? or is it perhaps for other reasons? has anyone else experienced this or am i just crazy? has this topic been discussed to death already? if so, point me to the proper thread. thanks.

You are thinking too hard! My guess is there is something else at work. The assumption that shorter is easier or should be has little foundation. After that is discarded the whole line of thought is doomed. I'm sorry, but depending on the size of a hand, the longer string might be a better fit. And any advantage of "target size" would be negligible I would think. There is just not enough difference in the length. Just my .02. BTW, I play a 43" DB and a 35" fret-less EBG. I did play a 41.5" DB for a while . It is more difficult to adjust to the Eb/D neck issue than to get used to the string length difference. After a while it is just a bass...

[dchan]

I've never paid attention to string lengths, only to how good my intonation is on each bass I play.

I have noticed that setup of the bass definitely helps. If you can play the bass really easily, then you can focus more on the sound and intonation.

Another thing that helps is the sound the bass actually makes. If the sound is the huge, boomy, indistinct sound, then you might have some trouble hearing the exact note you are trying to play. But if you get this nice, crisp, clean sound, then you can pick off the notes almost as if you're playing a bass guitar.

So a good, easy-playing setup and a clean sound are important in getting good intonation. But that's only my experience.

[farmerdude]

Hey Swasha...I know excactly what you are saying.... Dont have the answer however....

Here is a bit of discussion on the subject...
Double Bass Scale Length

[Ludwig]

I think, the resonaces of the bass are more importend then differences in string length for intonation. If the string length gets to big, there are problems with the stretch of the hand, other wise it is more importand to really be able to hear the tones. Players are able to have good intonation on violin, viola or cello: If they can do that with that much smaller string length, a shorter scale on bass should be no problem.
Intonation depends on musical content, too. If you play a melodic line, some notes often are played differently then in a harmonic situation.