tailpiece and sound?

[tbassist4]

Does the tailpiece material have a large impact on the sound of a bass? I currently have an aluminum tailpiece (came with the bass), and I was wondering what would be improved by having an ebony one, or some other wood. How does it change the sound? Would it make a large difference on a plywood bass?

[JazzCat_88]

I have a metal tailpiece on my fully carved chinese bass. Tailpiece material has an impact on the sound of the bass, but how big an impact, i do not know. What I do know is that the sound of my bass improved when I changed the tailpiece cable to the one from Velvet strings. The previous steel cable was not flexible enough to allow the tailpiece to vibrate freely, resulting in a choked sound with low sustain. I also suppose the tailpiece contributes to better overtones. I'll leave that to more knowledgeable people.

[Jake deVilliers]

Hey tb4, if you check the archives you'll find pages and pages of discussion on this topic.

A lighter tailpiece will give a punchier, louder sound to a bass that is mostly played pizz but there is also the factor of mode-matching.

If the note produced by the tailpiece assembly (ie afterlength, tailpiece and tailgut) matches the note produced by the fingerboard extension, the bass will produce a much richer, more complex tone.

So there is more at play than just the weight of the tailpiece, the length matters too, as it will affect that resonant frequency.

[tbassist4]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Hey tb4, if you check the archives you'll find pages and pages of discussion on this topic.

A lighter tailpiece will give a punchier, louder sound to a bass that is mostly played pizz but there is also the factor of mode-matching.

If the note produced by the tailpiece assembly (ie afterlength, tailpiece and tailgut) matches the note produced by the fingerboard extension, the bass will produce a much richer, more complex tone.

So there is more at play than just the weight of the tailpiece, the length matters too, as it will affect that resonant frequency.

Thanks! Forgot my search feature, I'll have to look around.

[ZachDad]

Hey Tb4, I recently installed a composite tailpiece (Wittner), from Bob G. and I think it warmed up my plywood. (That sounds so dirty!?)

[LouisF]

Has anyone tried the Thomastik metal tailpieces?

LF

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Has anyone tried the Thomastik metal tailpieces?

LF

The Tomastik tail-piece is probably the one he has now....No?

[mpm]

Jennifer Leitham uses the Tomastic on her Paesold and gets a huge sound out of that rig.

[bkbirge]

On the similar note, how does mounting a pickup/preamp box to the tailpiece affect the sound? I just ordered the K&K Pure Preamp along with Gollihur's mounting kit to go with my K&K Bass Max pickup so I suppose I'll answer my own question in a few days but anyone else have experience?

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

If the note produced by the tailpiece assembly (ie afterlength, tailpiece and tailgut) matches the note produced by the fingerboard extension, the bass will produce a much richer, more complex tone.

You hear one note? I hear a lot of notes there.

[Jake deVilliers]

Why are you challenging me on this Arnold? I'm just reiterating what Chuck Traeger says in his book. I'm sure you've read it.

If I weave a rag through the afterlengths and hit it in the right place, I hear the 'fundamental' note of the tailpiece. If I adjust that note to match the 'fundamental' of the fingerboard extension, the bass gains sound; presence, tone & volume.

Its a technique that has helped several customers' basses so far and I'll continue to use it until someone shows me a better way.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have never even considered changing a TP unless it was either broken, the wrong size or just inferior material. The Only Bass with a usable TP I am replacing is on a large English/French Bass I bought a few years ago that is still in restoration aka 'The Mystery Bass'. This Bass came with a modified 3-string stained maple TP with 2 additional holes drilled. It doesn't look all that good either. Having not ever played the Bass, I had MPM make me a nice one out of Cocobolo. On my Riccardi/Storioni Bass is another modified 3-string stained Italian TP but this Bass I have played and it has a sound to die for. I will at most repair the TP if need be but not dare replace it.

My Batchelder, Martini and Gilkes all have very old and maybe original stained TPs on them. I will not replace a single one unless something breaks.

Most people doing this TP game and other gadget type fixes have marginal sounding Basses from what I have read. I know this will hit a few nerves but most people are spending money they will never get back in a re-sale when trading up. Stuffing a rag under the TP dampens it and so does leaning the Bass against your body when playing it.

Years ago when I was moving furniture around my office a friend of mine said "when you start moving the furniture around to get more space, you need a bigger room"!

So, when you start fiddling with your Bass changing components to get a better sound, maybe you need just a better Bass! No?

A Bass set up with everything in the right place with standard components is usually what's best for it. Often, the people who made the Bass thought of these things before hand. On the other hand, maybe not.

I just made Walnut shims for my Bridge Legs/adjusters on my Martini. The adjusters were up a bit after re-cutting the Bridge top a time or two. The Shims are only .200" tall, just over 3/16". How much better does the Bass sound now with this work done? I can't tell you. My hands and fingers hurt too much from shaping the Walnut around the feet after gluing them on to play the Bass and test it out...lol

Guys/Gals really, I think spending a little more time playing your Bass than fiddling with it might be the best treatment in the long run. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Hey, with all these TP changes, how come I don't see more used TPs being sold out here after replacing them with so called 'improved' ones?

Ok, did I ruffle a few feathers out here?

[arnoldschnitzer]

[quote=Jake deVilliers;4712063]Why are you challenging me on this Arnold? I'm just reiterating what Chuck Traeger says in his book. I'm sure you've read it. If I weave a rag through the afterlengths and hit it in the right place, I hear the 'fundamental' note of the tailpiece. [quote]

When I said I hear a lot of notes, I meant without damping the afterlengths. This was not a challenge, merely an observation.

[PB+J]

While I think ken must be right that more practice will give anyone more significant results than a new tailpiece, it seems like the tailpiece must have some effect--it has weight and mass; it has an impact on the afterlength of the strings, which after all vibrate some.

That being said, I'm unlikely to change the tailpiece on my shen

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Ok, did I ruffle a few feathers out here?

Welcome back.

You have the luxury of buying basses that many bassists will never even be able to dream of. I think it's reasonable for the rest of us to get the most out of our 'modest' instruments until our ship comes in.

I doubt anyone thinks they can tweak a Upton or Kay to fool anyone into believing they've got one of your basses Ken.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by clink

Welcome back.

You have the luxury of buying basses that many bassists will never even be able to dream of. I think it's reasonable for the rest of us to get the most out of our 'modest' instruments until our ship comes in.

I doubt anyone thinks they can tweak a Upton or Kay to fool anyone into believing they've got one of your basses Ken.

Before any of this Internet stuff existed we just strung 'em up and played em.

My first Bass just before turning 16 was a plywood Juzek. My second DB was a carved Juzek-like Bass about 50-75 years old. I was maybe 18 then. My next Bass was a Wilfer/Juzek Master Art (1966 or earlier) that I bought new from Juzek late in 1971 at 20 years old. Next, a year or so later I got my Bernardel and I was about 21 then. Later the next year a nice 5/8 Tyrolean Bass. Every Bass mentioned above I bought with money I earned playing the Bass with the exception of the first Juzek Ply which I bough with money from a summer job I had.

In early 1973 I bought my first Italian Bass. Between the cost of the Bass and the restoration it was about the market price for an Italian Bass in NY at that time. It was played side by side with other great Italian Basses over the years and served me well until I retired from playing professionally in 1987.

At no time did I ever experiment with Strings, Bridges, Tailpieces, after lengths etc, etc, etc nor did anyone else I knew. At one time I took one of my Basses bought later to Traeger (the new 'sensation' in town) and had him cut a new bridge and do a minor set-up as I had just gotten the Bass. I didn't think what he did was anything special and to say the least, 'we didn't hit it off together' so I never went back to him for any other work.

I believe that Basses do have a sweet spot and on some Basses the differences are more than on others. I just don't think you can hear all these differences people talk about and for sure, no one knows 100% if the experiment (yes, it's an experiment) will make the Bass better or worse than it was before touching it.

Sometimes (like with Bass playing) 'less is actually more'!

On my Mystery Bass, I am going to try it for awhile first without Bridge Adjusters. My Martini came here from Italy with no adjusters, 3 overlapping maple shims under the over-scooped Fingerboard and Rubner Hat peg gears. The day that I strung it up with two OLD Permanent E and A strings and two very OLD Flexocor G and D strings was the BEST I recall that Bass ever sounding and you can look at my website for b4 and after and you would never believe it now 'almost' sounds as good as it did that first day in America.

b4/after;



b4/after;



b4/after;



b4/after;




Don't get me wrong here. I love the tone of this Bass. It's just that it had this raw room-shaking power before any work was done to it. Now it still shakes the floor and has a dark sweet tone. I just don't think it's any better than before, just different and maybe, breaking in a bit after not being played for many years.

If you have a Bass with sub-par components, then I would suggest trying to upgrade them to a degree. A guy who buys a 2k Chinese Bass and spends another 3k tweaking it would have been better off spending 4-5k on a Bass from the start. I hope you get my meaning here. My posts here in no way is meant to be condescending. Just a little eye opening. That's all.

[LouisF]

The price of the tailpiece was @$60, not $2k and if that or a new set of tuners or bridge adjusters or some such makes a work-a-day instrument better or easier to play - or develops a sensitivity to tone/sound/resonance in the player (or is just plain fun to do as a hobby), I don't see the sin in it.

I am wondering though, Ken, how you and others feel about things like the Laborie end pin or the preferences for Quenoil-shaped basses or tungsten strings etc - I think there is something to be said for rethinking the instrument & its physics (like Arnold's ergonometric bass) as well as for hewing to tradition.

Louis

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

If you have a Bass with sub-par components, then I would suggest trying to upgrade them to a degree. A guy who buys a 2k Chinese Bass and spends another 3k tweaking it would have been better off spending 4-5k on a Bass from the start. I hope you get my meaning here. My posts here in no way is meant to be condescending. Just a little eye opening. That's all.

Agreed.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by LouisF

The price of the tailpiece was @$60, not $2k and if that or a new set of tuners or bridge adjusters or some such makes a work-a-day instrument better or easier to play - or develops a sensitivity to tone/sound/resonance in the player (or is just plain fun to do as a hobby), I don't see the sin in it.

I am wondering though, Ken, how you and others feel about things like the Laborie end pin or the preferences for Quenoil-shaped basses or tungsten strings etc - I think there is something to be said for rethinking the instrument & its physics (like Arnold's ergonometric bass) as well as for hewing to tradition.

Louis

First off I have heard of people changing fingerboards and more when trying to tweak a Bass and end of spending as much on the repairs as the Bass cost. So, do what needs done. Have fun with it as well. I just don't think all the tinkering is needed to make a Bass better all the time.

I actually just sold a possible Quenoil shop Bass branded Paul Bisch. With the exception of the Varnish, it looked just like Rabbath's Quenoil. For me, it didn't have the full bodied sound I look for as an Orchestra Bass. For solo work or Jazz, I think it is great.

I don't know what 'tungsten strings' are. Can you fill me in?

I have played all 3 Ergo Basses that Arnold made. They all sounded great. If I were to but some new Basses, custom made, I might consider something like the Ergo or even full cornerless. My Cornerless Bass is so easy to get around. Other than the 44+" string length, it's the most comfortable Bass I own.

Laborie end pin? Someone came over one day and put his Laborie end pin in the Bass to show it to me. The other endpin still in place. I couldn't hold on to the Bass as it kept twisting away from me. I learned the Dragonetti on my Bernardel and old Italian Bass, both large Basses with big shoulders. Playing up on my toes was a way of life. I don't mind reaching for it. Also, I prefer some Bass in my chest as I play. Kinda just used to it I guess.

I once asked a Philly Orchestra player about his Bass and after telling me about what it might be he remarked, "I don't know anything about Basses. If you feel it in your gut, it's a good Bass."

Like a Wendy's commercial.. "Where's the Bass?"

[LouisF]

The tungstens are Corellis (370TX I think). I have them on one bass where they work really well - on another they were just THIN! - Interesting what
you say about the cornerless bass. I was just talking with Sergio Scaramelli that IF I survive this job as college president, I'm going to treat myself to one of his "pear" basses when I retire!

I use the bent endpin in one bass - I find that for those of us who play sitting down, it does take the strain off the back. Standing up - I don't see it has an advantage - although alot of people believe it opens up the sound of the bass etc (especially with the drilled Laborie hole, and now, according to some with a wood, instead of carbon fiber, endpin).

I will agree with you that, all things considered, carbon fiber bows are not necessarily a sign or progress, but they do have their uses.

Louis