Taking the plunge

maestrovert · #1 11-19-2009, 07:56 PM

Heya...
Hope y'all don't mind a few questions....
Yes, i've been reading all the newby faq stuff.... yet i have a couple of questions before i take the plunge into my 1st Double....

In addition to my reading here, i've been perusing the websites of Gollihur, Upton and Nick Lloyd, and a visit to the Guarneri House shop in Grand Rapids is in order as well....
btw, my budget is $4k max, all up, but if i can keep it under $2.5k so much the better....

So i'm trying to decide between a lam and a hybrid and also a maker... and while i realize that DB instruments are individually unique, i wonder if there are makers universally recommended for beginners by those of you with more knowledge and experience ? Are any makers clearly superior, or do they all have strong points and weaknesses ?

For example, in checking the Upton Bass site, i stumbled across this:
They directly compare their UB Std lam to a Shen lam and an Englehardt lam and the Shen and Englehardt basses don't appear to compare very well at all...
is this simply hyperbole on Upton's part ?
i was pretty close to deciding on the Englehardt and looking for a dealer until i saw that comparison....
Another point in Upton's favor is their statement that their wares are made in their Connecticut shop, and not shipped in from overseas for finishing and setup....is this true ?

How about Strunal ? how do their wares generally compare to the other makers named above ?

Any guidance, advice or help will be GREATLY appreciated !

Thanks,
Rob Greene aka your friendly neighborhood maestrovert

forester · #2 11-19-2009, 09:03 PM

sir,

If you don't buy domestic...I will personally come and smoke you like a cheap cigar!

hdiddy · #3 11-19-2009, 09:32 PM

pfft.

There are two things to remember:
1) Try before you buy (yes, even if you know nothing about basses)
2) Buy as much as you can afford.
3) Get a teacher.

drurb · #4 11-19-2009, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrovert

Another point in Upton's favor is their statement that their wares are made in their Connecticut shop, and not shipped in from overseas for finishing and setup....is this true ?

Yes, it's true. If you visit their facility, you literally see lumber at one end and finished basses at the other. In the middle are basses in various stages of construction.

As for your budget, I think you will be rewarded by buying the best instrument you can afford. There can be quite a difference between $2.5k and $4k!

MIKMAN · #5 11-20-2009, 02:32 AM

Dear friend you have the privilege to live in the States, where you can find a very wide selection of basses. There is no use to look to cheap Chinese basses, or Strunals or other mediocre constructions. Try some Uptons, a Cleveland or a La Scala hybrid and find among them the particular bass which "speaks" to you. DB made in USA represent IMHO the best choice today.
Good luck
Mike

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #6 11-20-2009, 06:08 AM

With all due respect to the Upton lami basses - which I played a couple of this summer - that's an add written by a company designed to sell that company's wares. The Uptons I played were fine basses, but so are the Shens a lot of the students around here are playing. The new Shen finishes are a lot nicer than that Nitro orange shown there. If you want to compare the Upton laminates to the Shens, get the final price of bass in question from the Upton site, and compare it to the comparably priced Shen on Nick Lloyd's site. They won't look so far apart then, I bet. I like both just fine, and both are good solid starter basses with a lot of good music to be made on them. The Englehardts aren't in the same league IMO, but then I believe they're a good bit cheaper, too.

Hdiddy's advice was excellent: try before you buy, even if you're a beginner. If you know someone who plays, see if they'll go with you to try basses, and stand back and listen. There's no substitute for the in-person experience, and the cost of a road trip is usually very much worth the money, since then you know what you'll be getting. If there's any chance to buy from a good luthier near you who can also be your setup/repair guy down the road, that's a big plus as well, as you can develop a relationship with that person at the same time. Good luck!

BPeder · #7 11-20-2009, 06:58 AM

Chris' advice to take Hdiddy's advice, "Hdiddy's advice was excellent: try before you buy," Is good advice.

But if you can't try every bass, think about what your comfort zone is for buying a bass sight un-seen. Many of us have done it with great success. I would only recommend that scenario with a new bass though...

A bass is a lot like a wife but not in every respect. Basses can change. Messing around with set up can change things for the better and a bass that may not speak to you right out of the box can and likely will - 1) open up with time and 2) sound much better after you know more about what you want it to sound like and how to communicate that desire to your luthier. I'll let others carry the wife analogy forward...

The other part of the sound equation is your teacher. Your bass will sound better if you play it better, or maybe right is a better word. Bad habits won't make a bass sound better. What was I talking about...? I better move on...

On the Upton basses? One thing they offer is a trade up program. I'm not sure if you knew that. You could spend less on an Upton entry level lammy now, and then trade up, with no loss of value to a hybrid or carved bass from their line in the future, when you're ready. Don't you wish cars were like that?

In a perfect world we'd all get to travel to every part of the nation and see and play every bass in our price range. Even handling just some is preferable, but if you decide to order a new one SUS, it's really OK. Your chances of getting a dud are way slimmer than getting a gooder IMO. Check the warranties and look for satisfaction guaranteed programs or trade up programs like Upton's and "take the plunge" Good luck!

catty · #8 11-20-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIKMAN

There is no use to look to cheap Chinese basses, or Strunals or other mediocre constructions.

FWIW...my lam Strunal has been all around for years...everywhere it lands, people are impressed by how good it sounds. Best $700 I ever spent.

maestrovert · #9 11-20-2009, 07:57 AM

Thanks guys, your advice is much appreciated...

While i am primarily a guitarist who also plays EB, i'm also not an absolute DB neophyte as i played URB throughout jr high & high school on the school's horrendous rental, but after graduation i dropped the unwieldy instrument in favor of "Rock n' Roll"(sound familiar to anyone else ?)....but it's been 35 years or so since then and i'm back to beginner status at square one...

Thank you for easing my mind on Upton's instruments....i realize that purchasing any stringed instrument sight unseen is a complete crap shoot, and unless i've commissioned an instrument i definitely prefer to play 'em first, but as i may not be able to travel to Connecticut any time soon, i am asking the resident experts here about them...

Also, Thank you Chris ! i've been perusing your website and have just now finished reading the "Doing it the slow way" article posted there....

Forester: i don't do cheap cigars !

but you're welcome to come on up and sample the contents of my humidor....

drurb · #10 11-20-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrovert

i realize that purchasing any stringed instrument sight unseen is a complete crap shoot...

It need not be that at all. Quite a bit of good information can be gleaned about a number of basses you might buy sight-unseen and that can reduce the risk substantially, IMO.

longfinger · #11 11-20-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIKMAN

Dear friend you have the privilege to live in the States, where you can find a very wide selection of basses. There is no use to look to cheap Chinese basses, or Strunals or other mediocre constructions. Try some Uptons, a Cleveland or a La Scala hybrid and find among them the particular bass which "speaks" to you. DB made in USA represent IMHO the best choice today.
Good luck
Mike

Strunal makes decent basses. Their most popular model is plywood with ebony fittings (50/4). They make hybrids and carved wood basses too, which are better than their most commonly seen bass.

At the David Gage webstore, both the Strunal 50/4 and the Upton plywood are selling for $1950. If the Strunal 50/4 was so much worse than the Upton ply, they could not successfully sell for $1950, right?

drurb · #12 11-20-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longfinger

If the Strunal 50/4 was so much worse than the Upton ply, they could not successfully sell for $1950, right?

The particulars of these two instruments aside, it's tenuous to equate asking price (or even selling price) with quality.

Jason Sypher · #13 11-20-2009, 12:17 PM

I'd personally go straight to Arnold AES Instruments and buy a New Standard ply. You don't need and perhaps aren't ready for a carved bass with all that goes with it. I've played some great Shen's and they represent a good value. Strunals never did it for me, personally. Aside from the bass you are going to want an expert set-up (that comes with the New Standard). Happy hunting.

wayne holmes · #14 11-20-2009, 10:26 PM

you are wise to ask these questions. Keep asking and play several different basses. For $4000, you should be able to get a very good bass. My personal experience is that I would not have anything less than a hybrid if I put out $2500 to $4000. I would think that you could go to some bass luthiers in your area, and could see a variety of basses within your price range. I keep thinking "man, what I could buy for $4000" take your time- again, you can get a very good instrument for $4000-All the ones that you have mentioned are reputable. I would just add - check out the carved Eberle that most have in their shop now, that came from Ideal Music(made in Germany). They are a little shinny for some, but they are a lot of bang for your buck-IMHO

MIKMAN · #15 11-21-2009, 12:49 AM

[QUOTE:Strunal makes decent basses. Their most popular model is plywood with ebony fittings (50/4). They make hybrids and carved wood basses too, which are better than their most commonly seen bass.

At the David Gage webstore, both the Strunal 50/4 and the Upton plywood are selling for $1950. If the Strunal 50/4 was so much worse than the Upton ply, they could not successfully sell for $1950, right? QUOTE]

Dear friends, let me explain my opinion with due respect. I have laid hands in many Strunals during the last five-six years, i have visited their factory in Luby twice and i have made minor repairs to some of them. In Greece they represent the vast majority of double basses so i am aware of almost all the existing models.

Their full carved models are well constructed but usually they have thicker top and back plates, so they usually produce a "choked" sound. The spirit varnished carved models are better, compared with the nitro or polyurethane varnished. The local Conservatoir send three of them in Bulgaria for regraduation and revarnishing and they returned significantly better instruments. IMHO the Luby luthiers could pay more attention during graduation process, in order to achieve a better result.

As for the laminate models, well, i have mixed feelings. Two "blond" 50/4 i tried showed a robust construction, albeit the sound was rather "dingy". Strung with Spiro mittels and playing with the soundpost i managed to improve one of them, the other remained indifferent. I could never -never- compare a 50/4 with either an Upton Standard laminate or with a La Scala or a Cleveland. The American made laminate basses are in a different League in terms of sound quality.

As a final word, always respectfully, i believe that in most cases the price of a given commodity is determined not only by the quality of the commodity but also by the marketing laws. In Europe a 50/4 costs around $1500. The cost of an Upton Standard Laminate (bass, shipping plus taxes) is more than $3200. I have seen at least five European jazz bassists perform with an Upton lam in their concerts around Europe and they have this particular bass to high esteem. I haven't seen so far any bassist perform with a Strunal lam. Marketing? Maybee.
Mike

catty · #16 11-21-2009, 10:49 AM

Strunal lam., The Blue Luna, Butte MT. Albeit, If I could afford better, I would..

hdiddy · #17 11-21-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I'd personally go straight to Arnold AES Instruments and buy a New Standard ply. You don't need and perhaps aren't ready for a carved bass with all that goes with it. I've played some great Shen's and they represent a good value. Strunals never did it for me, personally. Aside from the bass you are going to want an expert set-up (that comes with the New Standard). Happy hunting.

I'm with Jason. If you're going to blow $4K sight unseen, do it on a New Standard.

maestrovert · #18 11-21-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catty

Strunal lam., The Blue Luna, Butte MT. Albeit, If I could afford better, I would..

Howdy !

i lived in Butte for much of my adult life....moved away in '94...

maestrovert · #19 11-21-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

If you're going to blow $4K sight unseen...../.....

But that's just it, i don't want to(and won't) "blow" my hard earned money !
Hence my asking 'round here for your expert opinions...so please, accept my Thanks !

Any more ? i'll take all the good advice i can get !

catty · #20 11-21-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestrovert

Howdy !

i lived in Butte for much of my adult life....moved away in '94...

Butte's an interesting place. It was probably still pretty depressed in '94--it's currently enjoying some revitalization, as folks realize they can acquire cheap real estate. I like Butte because it's funky with great Victorian architecture. Myself, I'm a native Detroiter living in Missoula.