Thinking of converting to upright... Any advice?

[Kibuddy]

I sincerely apologize if you get a lot of threads like this. If you do, please guide me in the direction of another thread that will help. I don't much venture to this side of TB, though, so go easy on me.

Anyways, I've been playing bass guitar for several years now and have finally decided to make the move to upright. It's just such a beautiful instrument, I couldn't resist! I need a little help regarding what to expect, though.

First off, how difficult is the switch, especially for someone who has never learned to read music on the bass (one of my biggest regrets, but my old teacher taught me with tablature, not classical notation. One of the main reasons he's no longer my teacher.)? I would assume the techniques are vastly different as well, and the jump from my tiny little bass guitar to this monster is certainly intimidating.

I'm also really concerned about the price of things. I've been doing some research on student basses, and the prices made my poor wallet cry. I'm a high school kid, so I'm only making minimum wage. I don't make enough to pay for lessons, a bass, a bow, and whatever other accessories I may find myself in need of. It's a complete impossibility. If anybody knows a place where I could rent a bass (Greater Portland area in Maine), I would really appreciate the help.

Other than that, if anyone could just offer general advice, or tell me what I can expect (opportunities and such) as a double bass player, that would be just fantastic.

Thanks!

[Dbassmon]

Having just made the switch, I can tell you a couple of things right off the bat. Because I now own a double bass does not classify me as a player, just an owner.

First thing that I found was how physically difficult it was to even produce a pleasing pizzicato note. EB have action which requires a light touch (at lease all mine do) To get a great pizzacto sound on electric requires restraint and focused energy. That same touch produces no sound at all on my double bass.

If I lower the action on the double bass to anywhere resembling where it is on my electrics, the instrument makes little sound at all and none of it pleasing.

The next thing I found to significant was the sheer difference in scale. My electrics are 34 and 35" scale. My double bass which is 3/4 is 41.5" scale. There is 5 inches between F and G on the E string ( a whole step) This makes electric bass fingerings useless on the double bass. So you have to learn all new fingerings and this does not even address the thumb position techinque needed to play up the finger board.

This is not an easy transition and requires some real dedication and desire to make this switch. You will have hands of steel. I am into this about one month and my hands are significantly stonger after just this short time.

As far as cost of a bass, maybe your high school has loaners. Many schools do if you sign up for stageband or orchestra. Good luck!

[Steve Killingsworth]

Try the newbie links at the top of the page or use the search function. There are many really good threads that address all your concerns.

Just beware--the big fiddle is a highly addictive thing.

[Kibuddy]

Thanks for the advice. It's good to hear about the switch from the perspective of another bass guitar player.

I just asked my band conductor earlier today if I could use the school's upright, but it's currently in disrepair and will be that way for some time to come.

[lloccmttocs]

I myself have made this jump just two years ago, midway through my sophmore year, now a senior I'm one audition away from getting into college for it. Like said above it is an addictive instrument. One thing to always remember is to never get frustrated. Once you get frustrated or worried your hands won't function barely at all. Just keep a cool mind and give it a try.

Here are some tips and things to avoid

in electric bass you could strum at any angle basicly and it would work but for string bass you want to have your fingers plucking perpendicular to the string. And for most notes unless its fast, use BOTH your index and middle in conjunction only do back and forth (index or middle individually) if it is too fast.

Bowing will take some time to get used to. there are two bows to choose from, german and french, try them out and see what one feels better. When bowing keep the bow down inbetween the end of the fretboard and the bridge, it might feel like a stretch but remember not to use alot (if any) of muscle to use the bow, dead weight of your arm should be enough to propell it. Otherwise you will hurt your bowing arm and you can't afford to do that.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by lloccmttocs

...in electric bass you could strum at any angle basicly and it would work but for string bass you want to have your fingers plucking perpendicular to the string.

Actually the fingers are typically held almost parallel and not perpendicular to the string.

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by drurb

Actually the fingers are typically held almost parallel and not perpendicular to the string.

I do both, depending on whether I want a loud thump, or a soft boom out of the bass. On faster passages, I'll play it similar to an electric. It varies, and I've never seen two DB players use exactly the right hand technique for arco or pizz playing. Accoustic instruments are much more touch-sensitive than electric, and there are a lot of flavors to be found on a DB.


For the original thread starter, just remember that once you have your bass, you will most likely get frustrated repeatedly. Ignore it. It goes away with practice. It's even worse with bowing, which has a tendency to sqawk a lot at first, and reveal any little flaw in your intonation. Keep at it. Playing DB took way more perserverance than electric for me, but the results are better all-around on both instruments, and I made more money in my first year gigging with my DB than I did the 5 previous years playing electric.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by drurb

Actually the fingers are typically held almost parallel and not perpendicular to the string.

Originally Posted by WalterBush

I do both, depending on whether I want a loud thump, or a soft boom out of the bass. On faster passages, I'll play it similar to an electric. It varies, and I've never seen two DB players use exactly the right hand technique for arco or pizz playing. Accoustic instruments are much more touch-sensitive than electric, and there are a lot of flavors to be found on a DB.

Notice that I was careful to use the word "typically." Yes, on faster passages, the fingers are typically rotated into a more perpendicular orientation. I think, however, there is little debate that the vast majority of accomplished, world-class players (think of all those household bass names) as well as most others will keep the right-hand fingers pretty much parallel to the string for loud or soft playing. Take a look at Matthew Rybicki's right hand in the ad to the left of these posts. Check out Ron Carter's site for some fine examples on video, Rufus Reid's book, or literally thousands of other examples.

I do not mean to start a technique debate here. I was only reacting to a new player being told that on DB, the fingers of the right hand are held perpendicular to the strings. In fact, I thought the poster might have simply chosen the wrong word inadvertently.

[WalterBush]

Yes, I noticed both the use of "typically" and the player's right hand off to the side. Shoot, even old '30s movies where you see a bassist in the background and their hand looks almost open as they play.

Typically, my fingers are parallel, with the knuckle of my index finger grabbing the string.

My point was, there's lots of flavors waiting to be pulled, plucked, grasped, and stroked out of those strings. It's part of the appeal. No technique debate here. Just urging a newbie to expiriment an awful lot, both with fingers and bow. It's half the fun of the instrument.

Plus, it's the only way to find all the annoying noises that make nearby musicians groan and throw things at you at rehearsal breaks

[drurb]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

Yes, I noticed both the use of "typically" and the player's right hand off to the side. Shoot, even old '30s movies where you see a bassist in the background and their hand looks almost open as they play.

Typically, my fingers are parallel, with the knuckle of my index finger grabbing the string.

My point was, there's lots of flavors waiting to be pulled, plucked, grasped, and stroked out of those strings. It's part of the appeal. No technique debate here. Just urging a newbie to expiriment an awful lot, both with fingers and bow. It's half the fun of the instrument.

Plus, it's the only way to find all the annoying noises that make nearby musicians groan and throw things at you at rehearsal breaks

Sounds like we're in violent agreement!

[Kibuddy]

I really appreciate the help guys. Thanks a bunch!

[SBassman]

It's a whole new world.

It's a beautiful instrument with tones you won't get any other way.

But, for me, it's very humbling. If you haven't done this yet, go into a store and try one. Very humbling.

[RWP]

Originally Posted by SBassman

But, for me, it's very humbling. If you haven't done this yet, go into a store and try one. Very humbling.

Me too. After playing EB for YEARS, I falsely thought I could at least get some pleasing tones out of an upright. I was SO wrong. The thing is a beast. The biggest problem I had was the action being so high. Very humbling.

[Ike Harris]

Originally Posted by RWP

Me too. After playing EB for YEARS, I falsely thought I could at least get some pleasing tones out of an upright. I was SO wrong. The thing is a beast. The biggest problem I had was the action being so high. Very humbling.

There are ways to make this process easier. You don't have to have action so high it's unplayable. A good luthier or experienced player who dabbles can fix that for you. The right strings can make the tension less stiff. If you are willing to invest the time and really want to double, there are fingering techniques you can do on upright that are transferable to electric. In fact, I didn't have an organized left hand fingering until I started playing upright and modified them slightly for electric. Getting a decent tone is not that difficult if you play the string correctly.

I'm working on a book that specifically addresses the similarities between the two instruments that can make doubling easier. Hopefully this time next year I'll be close to getting it out there. This is my first effort and am working in my spare time on and off the road. I see elec. players almost daily asking these questions and it's time to get something together that will provide answers all in one book.

Ike

[drurb]

...and the #1, best piece of advice:

GET A TEACHER!

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Oh yea. Nobody's mentioned this yet.


Get a teacher as soon as you get a bass. Don't try it on your own.
It's hard enough WITH help.

[Kibuddy]

Originally Posted by drurb

...and the #1, best piece of advice:

GET A TEACHER!

I'm working on this one as we speak, don't worry.

[bilco]

Originally Posted by Kibuddy

I'm working on this one as we speak, don't worry.

This really is crucial or you can hurt yourself in a hurry. I've only had my upright a month (played Pbass for 35 years) and even with a few lessons I have learned left hand techniques that have saved my from seriously hurting myself. I still managed to put too much stress on my left thumb during a 2 hour practice earlier this week and I am still sore.

Your teacher will have a method they want you to learn; mine has me working through Simandl, which basically has you covering 3 chromatic steps with your 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers (the 3rd finger reinforces the 4th.) So I have had to give up the concept of being able to play the electric bass pattern where my 2nd finger gets the root and the flat 4th of a Major scale, 1st finger gets the 3rd and 6th of the scale and 4th finger gets the 5th and octave, all without shifting. There is no way to do that on the upright; you have to shift just to walk a Major Scale unless you are using open strings.

It is VERY humbling, but really rewarding too. I have never been that inclined to sit down and actually practice on my Pbass, but the only reason I ever stop working on the upright is my body starts complaining.

It is a warm, organic gratifying sound, even after only a month of lessons and practicing. I can play in half position and first position in a few keys and stay fairly well in tune. Anything higher than first position is still No Man's Land for me! I am really looking forward to working it in on my regular gigs and going to some bluegrass jams.

Come on over to the other side and enjoy,
Bill Colbert

[kherber]

Originally Posted by bilco

Your teacher will have a method they want you to learn; mine has me working through Simandl, which basically has you covering 3 chromatic steps with your 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers (the 3rd finger reinforces the 4th.) So I have had to give up the concept of being able to play the electric bass pattern...

Maybe, or maybe not.

I picked up my string bass in 1975, about two years after I bought my Precision. As a youth, I'd been formally trained on saxophone, so never bothered with a lot of bass lessons on either instrument. I started out with Simandl, but really didn't like the three finger left hand approach. As Bilco points out, all your electric bass fingering patterns go out the window.

I decided to just go with a four-finger style, and it pretty much worked out. It takes some work stretching your hand to make some of the spans, but it can be done. My hands are not particularly large, but I can make almost every reach without a shift (note, I said almost...).

I've never been sure if this technique is "legitimate" or not. It works well for me, and I once received a very nice compliment from the head of the String Department at U of M Music School when I was playing in Ann Arbor, Mich., so I guess it's not all wrong.

It's a lovely instrument. I played mine full time for several years, and doubled with it along with my Fender. It's a fairly steep learning curve. I was never satisfied with my progress still I started taking it out on gigs--then my playing started to really improve.

Go slow, be careful not to strain your hands.

Doc

[Kibuddy]

Update:

I'm signing up for lessons tomorrow. Looks like I'm making the switch.