Top hat tuners

[John_Madere]

I just bought an old Czech bass that has top hat tuning pegs. The guy I bought it from found it in a thrift store. It's one of those "Strad" copy basses and it may not have been played on for many years.

Ok, now to my question. The bass seems to go out of tune quickly. I put a set of Evahs on it three weeks ago, so they should be broken in by now. I've never had these top hat tuners on a bass before and I guess I'm just asking how reliable they are. Is this common with these types of tuning pegs or is it the fact that it may have been 20 years or so since the bass has been played?

[Jordan M]

I think it varies widely with these things. My bass also has Evahs on it, I have never had any tuning problems with it, even during break-in. In fact, it was an extraordinarily smooth break-in. Furthermore, it's an old Czech roundback bass, dated from between 1918-1920 (Czecho-Slovakia on the label as opposed to Czechoslovakia), marked as a "Copy of Antonius Stradivarius". It hasn't aged well in other respects (neck's been broken off a few times, massive crack in the top, beat and chipped badly, scroll has a random screw in it, etc.). In fact the tuners are probably the most solid thing on the instrument and they're original. It even wasn't played for 30 years while it sat unattended in my grandparents' basement.

Disclaimer: I didn't do any of the damage to the instrument! That was from before my family owned it.

[shadygrove]

Some other possibilities for your tuning problem are changes in temperature/humidity, the top of the bridge moving towards the fingerboard as you tighten the strings, or whatever is holding the tailpiece on could be getting ready to let go - I had this happen with a cracked tailpiece hanger wire once.

[John_Madere]

I did hear the bridge creaking a little bit when I put the Evahs on. Might push the bridge down a bit and see if that fixes anything. The bass was recently restored and the tailpiece wire looks ok. I'll inspect it a little more closely tomorrow to see if that could be part of the problem. Thanks for all the tips, guys!

[robobass]

There's nothing inherently wrong with hatpegs as a system (I actually prefer them), but they can be problematic. The screws that hold them to the tuning gears can start to let go, and they can bind in the pegbox holes in high humidity, for example. But, if the tuning problems occur on all strings, then I would bet the culprit lies elsewhere. Have you looked at the bassbar?

[John_Madere]

The G is out more consistently. It was recently restored and a new bass bar was installed. Hope that's not the problem. The bass probably just needs to be played in...I hope.

[Jsn]

Ive never heard them called "top hat" tuners before. Hatpeg, yes, and I can see the thinking behind that. Is this a term I've missed?

[John_Madere]

I saw someone else on the forum referring to them as top hats. Never knew what to call them until I got a bass that had them.

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Jsn

Ive never heard them called "top hat" tuners before.

I've always heard them called "hat peg" tuners, too. Back when I worked in a music store, "top hat" was the term for vintage Gibson electric guitar knobs or the Fender pickup selector switch for Teles.

I love the look of those older tuners on a DB, and I've always secretly wished my bass had them. I wish secretly because the tuners on my bass are rock solid, do their job perfectly, and have never given me a moment of trouble. I learned the hard way not to mess with stuff that works on my instruments. Still, I confess to wishing that I could slap some drawer knobs on there to get that old bass look. Would that be stupid? Would I be better off spending the time and energy on practicing instead? I know the answers to these questions.

Which brings me to a related question/issue. I notice that hat pegs come in two major varieties: individual tuners, and whole plate tuners. Here's an example of the individual, and here's an example of the plate variety, both taken from a famous bass vendor (I could have easily chosen another, but I quickly found an example of each on this site). I see more of the individual type tuners on old basses.

If it keeps going out, I'd take it to a bass luthier. And if you replace them, PM me so I can buy the ebony knobs from you. Er, wait.... Never mind. I am going to go play some scales.

--Steve

[forester]

feeling the torment brother...i have the hat pegs ,but also a unrequited 41 yr old desire for a set of cragar ss deep dish mags.

[transition]

Originally Posted by robobass

There's nothing inherently wrong with hatpegs as a system (I actually prefer them), but they can be problematic. The screws that hold them to the tuning gears can start to let go, and they can bind in the pegbox holes in high humidity, for example. But, if the tuning problems occur on all strings, then I would bet the culprit lies elsewhere. Have you looked at the bassbar?

I'm a total newb to the bass, and I think this might answer a question I've had about hat pegs... do they go all the way through the peg box, and are what the strings are wound on (like a cello), but they're also geared in order to make them usable?

(at first, I thought they might have just been decorative, and wondered if there was a practical reason for them. I sure do like how they look, though...)

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by transition

I'm a total newb to the bass, and I think this might answer a question I've had about hat pegs... do they go all the way through the peg box, and are what the strings are wound on (like a cello), but they're also geared in order to make them usable?

(at first, I thought they might have just been decorative, and wondered if there was a practical reason for them. I sure do like how they look, though...)

Hat pegs are a transitional step from friction pegs to worm and sector gears. The wooden peg has a gear attached to it and the tuning key is an extension of the worm gear.

Photo of a hat peg off the bass here: https://www.birdlandmusic.net/skin1/..._pdf/ubhat.jpg

They can be set up to work very well, they are fairly light because of the wooden shafts and they make any DB look much better! IMHO, YMMV, STP

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Jordan M

...Furthermore, it's an old Czech roundback bass, dated from between 1918-1920 (Czecho-Slovakia on the label as opposed to Czechoslovakia)...

Hey, sorry for the derail. What's the rule here? If it's spelled "Czechoslovakia" does that mean post 1920? I'm always trying to narrow the date range of my bass down and this may be a clue I've missed.

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Hey, sorry for the derail.

LOL.

Further derail: I've noticed a few places have the hyphen name as 1918-1920 or 1918-1923, with the unhyphenated being later; antique glass collectors are into this label thing for their own reasons. I'm not sure if this can further pin-point the date of export.

Re-rail: Hat peg tuners appear commonly on pre-WWI "Czech" basses. Hey Troy, did you see the hat pegs on the bass in the B&J catalog from the Salvadore de Durro thread? I'll attach a detail.

--Steve

[PMF1]

I've got hat pegs too. Before I bought mine, I didn't even know what the difference was . When I got mine about a year ago, I had a similar problem with the bass going out of tune in a short space of time too but I dont think it had to do with the hat pegs. I just think the bass has "gotten used to" the new environment (humidity, teperature and so on.. and being played again instead of just standing around). It stays in tune now for almost about like 1 week depending on how many times I play it.

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Stev187

Still, I confess to wishing that I could slap some drawer knobs on there to get that old bass look.

Okay, gang. I have zero impulse control and even less shame. 30 minutes and $5 invested in these faux hat peg caps. There is no structural modification to the bass; a machine screw that holds the the gear to the housing is simply threaded through the drawer knob, and a simple 1/2 cap covers it. Easily removed, as I will be doing before I take the bass in for a set-up on Monday.

A faux ebony finish (easily done--I've done it to a few banjo pegheads in the past) and these look sort of like hat pegs. In fact, they look a lot like "top hats," don't they? If I wanted to turn my own knobs, these would look rather convincing.

Not proud,
--Steve