On an upright bass do you have to play on the frets?

[SKA-KID]

I know most uprights dont have frets, but are you supposed to play where they would be? I saw people talking about fretless bass guitars saying you need to play on where the frets would be. I've played an upright before a few times and have been thinking about getting one for a while now.

So, do you have to play on the "imaginary" frets on a double bass/upright bass?

[thehamsterman]

its pretty similar to that, but the spacing is further then on a bass guitar. when people are first learning, alot of times they will put stickers where the frets would be, just as training wheels.

but yeah, you put your fingers where the frets would be

[Eli_Upright12]

Not so much, you dont really think about it as being frets, cuz the thing with frets is that you have what an inch of error, with bass its more of having your hands know where the notes are the specific spots. because if you think about it the most in tune part of the fret is right at the fret. Its a completely different feel.

[Michael Case]

You put your fingers where the notes are. You find out where the notes are by using your ear.

[drurb]

Instruments with frets have fixed notes placed according to the well-tempered scale (although notes can be "bent"). Fretless instruments, such as the DB, allow you to play "perfect" intervals in any key.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

You put your fingers where the notes are. You find out where the notes are by using your ear.

And in the beginning, you end up saying this a lot....

"Nope, that ain't it..... nope, that ain't it....."

If you have a teacher, he or she can teach you to use one of several fingering systems that will at least get you in the ballpark, but you'll still have to rely on your ears to get there.

[SKA-KID]

thankyou all, this has helped!

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

You put your fingers where the notes are. You find out where the notes are by using your ear.

- Well, it is not that simple or you would be sliding around all the time and unable to play in situations without ideal sound.

Your hand postion becomes your "fret system" and you fine tune in the moment with your ear, you also use your ear in building the postion.

[Silversorcerer]

I guess the easy answer is yes, you play where the frets would be. But really its the frets that would be placed where you stop the note. The determinative positions are located by harmonic nodes. If you learned with frets always there, here is an interesting concept to contemplate: How did the maker know where to put the frets?

In the old days of the violone, there were frets. These were made of gut and tied on in the proper position, which was determined by just harmony and if you changed keys you moved the frets. So getting rid of the frets got rid of a certain amount of hassle with them also. But most DB's come with the nut slots high enough that you could tie frets on them and have plenty of room. You' just have to figure out where to put them, which is why I say the question is sort of backward. Where the frets should or would be is where the note is stopped in tune.

Also, where you play the note ends up not being where an equal temperament fret would be. Because that would be slightly out of harmony and a good ear will correct that. That's what DRURB is talking about. Frets are approximately right everywhere but exactly right only on the note you tune to. So usually, depending on the key one is playing in, one plays the notes that are harmonically perfect (at least this is the goal mostly) on a fret-less instrument. The thing is you do this without really thinking about it a whole lot. What you learn is intervals between notes, how to hear them. It's really not too different on a fret-less bass guitar.

I highly recommend that you get a DB and try it out. It will make all of your playing on all basses better.

[Michael Case]

How can you play where the frets would be? What is your comparison? Have you ever seen a fretted DB? The only answer to the question is find a teacher and study a traditional fingering method.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

The determinative positions are located by harmonic nodes...

Hey, Silver-- that was a fine answer. I think you'd agree that the ideal fret positions would be determined by the nodes and that would work for just one key. Given the positions are "well-tempered," they're actually slightly away from the nodes-- yes?

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

How can you play where the frets would be? What is your comparison? Have you ever seen a fretted DB? The only answer to the question is find a teacher and study a traditional fingering method.

His answer was correct from the point of view of the physical aspects of the instrument. He was saying that your fingers stop the note at the point that the frets would be located if they were there. On a fretted instrument, you don't actually do that because you stop the note behind the fret. In actuality, on a fret-less instrument, you don't stop the notes where a well-tempered fret would be because you have the ability to form perfect intervals.

The question and the answer were academic. I agree that one should learn via a teacher and a traditional fingering method.

[Michael Case]

Silver's answer is very informative and correct. But the question still seems a bit flawed to me. The comparison in the original post seems to relate to EB and would lead SKA-KID down a down a bad road on the DB.

Personally, I've never thought about the DB in terms of frets. My first Double bass teacher played DB exclusively and deeply ingrained in me that I needed to give up any comparison to EB.

Maybe I'm missing the point, I don't know.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

- Well, it is not that simple or you would be sliding around all the time and unable to play in situations without ideal sound.

Your hand postion becomes your "fret system" and you fine tune in the moment with your ear, you also use your ear in building the postion.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that was the question. The original question seemed to assume that you could use EB fret placement to determine note location on the DB.

Like I said before I don't know.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

... I needed to give up any comparison to EB.

+1

It is a different instrument with different technique and even a different way of 'hearing' the instrument. I think trying to create a 1:1 comparison is a exercise in frustration.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

Silver's answer is very informative and correct. But the question still seems a bit flawed to me. The comparison in the original post seems to relate to EB and would lead SKA-KID down a down a bad road on the DB.

Personally, I've never thought about the DB in terms of frets. My first Double bass teacher played DB exclusively and deeply ingrained in me that I needed to give up any comparison to EB.

Maybe I'm missing the point, I don't know.

I agree with you completely. From the point of view of learning, which seems to be where SKA-KID is, he should be admonished to vanquish the "fret notion" from his mind and learn to play the DB for what it is.

I'm one of those exclusively DB players as well. I admire those who can play both DB and EB well. I really think of them as two quite different, but related, instruments. In my high-school days, I did play EB just a bit. I played it like one would play a DB-- that is, I fingered it ala Simandl! The damn frets also got in my way because I would try to adapt to the string length and hit the notes on target and end up landing on a fret.

[Michael Case]

Originally posted by drurb:The damn frets also got in my way because I would try to adapt to the string length and hit the notes on target and end up landing on a fret.

I've played EB for the better part of 20 years, I now play DB ALMOST exclusively (100% of my practice time, 98% of my gigs) and the frets get in my way now! When I know I need to play EB for a gig, I'll spend a little time each day before the gig getting reacquainted with it, but at first I'm always clunking on the frets.

[mccartneyman]

Playing alone, it's difficult to know if you're exactly in tune without using a tuner. So I suggest that UB novices do just this: play scales and check your intonation. This is something I learned from being a trombone player, because there are no set positions (other than first) on a trombone. In an ensemble, you can adjust your fingering as needed. I'd suggest that for anyone coming over to DB from EB, you use tape to mark the positions, just as any novice 4th-grader would do. There's no shame in this. I benefit greatly from having come over to an NS WAV (with position dots) from EB. I have a good ear, but the dots really help because the scale difference makes it hard to maintain hand position at first. I also am not embarrassed to actually look at the neck to see where I am. I recall someone asking Tony Levin how someone can play fretless without looking, and TL Said that even after 50 years "I have to look." And you'll see him doing this on his NS upright if you watch any of the Peter Gabriel DVDs. I also agree that using open notes as much as possible to re-adjust your ear is a great idea.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

I also agree that using open notes as much as possible to re-adjust your ear is a great idea.

I disagree. Yes you can use them to help but open strings don't sound as good to my ear and you have much less (no) control over the note. I always teach my students to use them selectively.

It takes practice but the best bet is is try to hear every note against the previous note. As you hone your ear you'll get those intervals more and more in tune. Is my intonation perfect... not even close... but open strings are not the solution imho.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

...I also am not embarrassed to actually look at the neck to see where I am. I recall someone asking Tony Levin how someone can play fretless without looking, and TL Said that even after 50 years "I have to look." And you'll see him doing this on his NS upright if you watch any of the Peter Gabriel DVDs. I also agree that using open notes as much as possible to re-adjust your ear is a great idea.

When I first learned to play (30+ years ago), I probably had such markers. If so, they left the bass very quickly. Through most of my training and right up until today, I find that looking at the fingerboard does nothing to help my intonation. In fact, if and when I do look at my hands out of curiosity, I find myself thinking, "That's where my hand is for that position?" I guess this is a result of having been formally trained (Simandl and beyond) to play classical music. You sure can't look at your hands in the middle of a symphony.

Now that I have switched over to jazz, I find that closing my eyes, if anything, helps! FWIW, this is how it is for me.