Value of a Kay with modifications

[RD]

I searched this topic, but came up empty. Generally, what happens to the value of a vintage Kay when you replace the original fingerboard, nut and tailpiece with ebony fittings? Does originality contribute to value with Kays? Or do improvments to the bass inrease value? Or both?
I see contradictory effects, on the face of it. Maybe it's just too complicated for my little brain to consider.
Calling MollyKay et. al.
TIA
RD

[AMJBASS]

The only piece that you would probably want to keep original is the tailpiece if its in good shape, otherwise a new ebony fingerboard and nut should increase the value. A bass in top playing condition is definitely a more valuable instrument to a player, perhaps not to a collector...

[Tejano Bass]

Are you buying or selling?

+1 on what AJ said . . . well, for the most part, anyway.

[Jsn]

Originally Posted by RD

Maybe it's just too complicated for my little brain to consider.
RD

No, the confusion is understandable. You'll often hear Kays referred to as "collectors' items", but that's not meant in the same sense as say, vintage Fender basses. The holy grail of folks who collect those is something in pristine condition, as if it came off the showroom floor; if you so much as swap out a knob you're looking at a lower price.

Kays, on the other hand, are about the sound. Well, the sound and the playability. Most people in the market for one are looking to make music with it, not hang it on the wall. So if you're making intelligent investments in making it sound and play as well as possible, that's probably not going to be perceived as a bad thing. The upgrades you're talking about are perfectly fine--however, I'd hang on to the original tailpiece and nut, as those can be swapped back fairly easily. A quality new ebony fingerboard, instead of a worn-out rosewood one? Bonus.

What do you want to think twice about? Cosmetic changes that aren't easily reversible, such as fancy individual tuners, or painting that portrait of your girlfriend on it, or gluing leopard skin to the ribs.

[RD]

Tejano,
Are you saying that when buying changed fittings have a different effect than when you're selling? That is even harder to get my head around.
I've bought a Kay, if that matters.
RD

[fdeck]

I think the difference between buying and selling is:

* If you are buying, then you have to evaluate whether the asking price is reasonable given the condition of the bass.

* If you already own the bass, then you have to decide whether the planned work will adversely affect the potential selling price.

My guess is that in the "buying" mode, other factors would weigh more heavily on the value of the bass, e.g., tone, playability, intactness, appearance, and the relative quality of other basses being sold in your locale at any given moment.

In the "owning" mode, again this is a guess, but the advisability of a major repair probably hinges on other factors, most importantly: Is the repair necessary, and is the bass worth repairing?

[EggyToast]

Generally on any bass, modifications in order to improve the quality of the instrument will increase the value. Some people will be obsessive over old instruments that are fully intact, but most musicians realize that things break or need to be replaced and can, within reason, improve the quality of the instrument.

Most modifications deal with what you outlined; fingerboard, neck, tailpiece, nut, tuning machines, etc. Rarely is the body completely replaced, as, well, that's the "heart" of the instrument and at that point you're just building a new one!

People like Kays because the ones that have lasted this long generally sound pretty good for a ply. Increasing the value of the other parts should make the bass overall more valuable. I've got a Kay with a thickened neck and ebony fingerboard and I personally feel that it's worth more this way than if it had original stuff. I feel that I got a very fair price, considering the work that was put into it, because the body of mine was a little beat up.

[Gearhead43]

On the other hand, if the original rosewood fingerboard is still in good shape or just needs to be planed, there is no good reason to "upgrade" it to an ebony one, IMO.

Throwing out a beautifull Brazilan Rosewood board (that is just about unobtainable today) would be a damn shame.

Same with the tailpiece.

[MR PC]

Absolutely! I like the feel of the Braz board on my old Kay. It's never been scooped out, so there is a lot of material left. And you can always shim the fingerboard with rosewood or ebony if you want some more depth to the neck profile. I'm thinking of having that done to mine.

Upgrades (done right) shouldn't affect the resale value of these old workhorses, no more than it would any other DB.

[MollyKay]

Originally Posted by RD

I searched this topic, but came up empty. Generally, what happens to the value of a vintage Kay when you replace the original fingerboard, nut and tailpiece with ebony fittings? Does originality contribute to value with Kays? Or do improvments to the bass inrease value? Or both?
I see contradictory effects, on the face of it. Maybe it's just too complicated for my little brain to consider.
Calling MollyKay et. al.
TIA
RD

This is all in my opinion, nothing more…I’ll chime in even if I am late to the party (I was enjoying the holiday) …the value of any bass is what someone is willing to pay you…period. The collectibility of a bass is something different. The internet has made prices on everything escalate because you can now easily research any item, watch eBay for current values and fine a previously “rare object” so much easier these days. Also the baby boomer effect in place…did you see any of the car auctions on TV…vintage Mustang cars sell for $250,000 that sold for $3,000 new?!?

If you are going to play the bass for enjoyment and paying gigs then it needs to be in good playable condition and sound great. If your old Kay has an original fingerboard that is thin, warp, or buzzing then what is the point of playing an original fingerboard. If you are going to “collect” a Kay as a long-term investment…then find the most original pristine bass that sounds good, cover it up and set it in a humidity control room and forget about it for another 50 years…what fun is that?

A Kay bass or any vintage plywood bass should be used to make music and if it just happens to gain value over the years, all the better. For originality (in my opinion) I look at the tuners, unbroken neck, tail piece and original finish are most important “objects” for value…but the bass needs to be in good playable condition…AND…not every Kay bass is a great sounding bass. Most have potential…but not every Kay is killer…like not every Epiphone is killer…these are production made basses…there is bound to be a few lemons.

The nut, fingerboard, bridge, saddle and end pin are going to show wear over many years of playing. If they need replaced to keep the bass healthy…then do it without the fear of hurting its value, you are keeping the bass playable. To me it is more important to keep the bass healthy and in good playing condition then factory original. Basses are not art objects (though some are quite beautiful to look at) basses make music…their true value is measured by the music they produce and the joy they bring to their owners and others who want to listen to the music they make.

The collectors market will go up and down but the music made with a bass will always remain the same…delightful music...<enter your genre here>.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by MR PC

Absolutely! I like the feel of the Braz board on my old Kay. It's never been scooped out, so there is a lot of material left. And you can always shim the fingerboard with rosewood or ebony if you want some more depth to the neck profile. I'm thinking of having that done to mine.

Upgrades (done right) shouldn't affect the resale value of these old workhorses, no more than it would any other DB.

Amusingly, in the pile of crap from which my bass emerged, there was a Kay rosewood fingerboard that must have fallen off another bass. I grabbed it, and am saving it for something, maybe a EUB project.

My Kay has been planed once, a decade or so ago, and seems stable.

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by RD

..... Generally, what happens to the value of a vintage Kay when you replace the original fingerboard, nut and tailpiece with ebony fittings? Does originality contribute to value with Kays? Or do improvments to the bass inrease value? Or both? ..... I see contradictory effects .....

Originally Posted by Tejano Bass

Are you buying or selling? .....

Originally Posted by fdeck

I think the difference between buying and selling is ......

Originally Posted by MollyKay

…the value of any bass is what someone is willing to pay you…period ....

RD ..... Are You So Confused Now ..... That you bailed outta this thread ? I don't blame you a bit .

FWIW .... I have an original / real-decent-condition / no-busted-neck / mostly-stock '40 Kay O-1 with rosewood FB/TP/Nut. I bought it in Idaho in Ott-Six for a "reasonable" price that I can always get back (plus some). Maybe she'd be better with some ebony moddies .... But I like the "vintage-ness" and she's pretty sweet the way she is. I didn't have to give my-first-born-male-child for her .... A bit of FB dressing / soundpost adj / new adj bridge / new strings by my luthier ..... Some dough spent but No Big Deal .... She's a work-horse.

On the other hand .... I was smitten with an Epi-At-A-Distance ... I was one of them "Someones Willin' To Pay .... Period". Really Nice Bass ... with good moddies. But now I'm sinkin' even more dinero for further moddies that will undoubtedly make it better. I found the perfect strings

Somewhere along the yellow-brick upright-bass road .... You have to ask yerself .... Will I ever get my dollars spent back out if I decide to sell .... And most importantly .... Do I really care ?? I figger the undertaker can always cut the top off The Epi and stuff my corpse in there when I die ... Way cheaper than yer average Funeral Home coffin !

P.S. You are in Seattle Right .... In all-things Kay / Epi / Whatever Bass ... Give Jake DeeVee at Crescent Beach Guitar up near Vancouver B.C. a shout ... He's a Real Luthier, no dummy, and he'll set you straight.

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

I figger the undertaker can always cut the top off The Epi and stuff my corpse in there when I die ... Way cheaper than yer average Funeral Home coffin !

[RD]

[quote=Bob Knebel;6609206]RD ..... Are You So Confused Now ..... That you bailed outta this thread ? I don't blame you a bit .
I didn't bail, I've been following this thread with great interest, just leaving the discussion to those more knowledgeable than me.
I was "smitten" with a Kay, it was expensive and horror of horrors I bought it without having touched it. But that's life and the market for collectibles. Live and we'll see what I learn.
RD

[Tejano Bass]

RD - in light of what already been said - most especially MK & RK - with which I concur 100% - my short answer is . . . if it ain't broke, then don't fix it - or - change the fittings/accessories unless it needs to be done to improve the sound/playability . . . e.g. - if the buyer is buying it because he wants a Kay, then he'd most likely prefer to see "Kay" on the original tailpiece - for whatever that may or may not be worth . . .

[Jsn]

Originally Posted by Tejano Bass

RD if it ain't broke, then don't fix it - or - change the fittings/accessories unless it needs to be done to improve the sound/playability . . . e.g. - if the buyer is buying it because he wants a Kay, then he'd most likely prefer to see "Kay" on the original tailpiece - for whatever that may or may not be worth . . .

True that! I think the thing to keep in mind is the stuff you can witness in most auto parts stores. There are products designed to keep a car running, products design to improve performance...and then there are geegaws (press-on chrome trim, fake rims, etc.) that are supposed to fancy up cars but only succeed in making them look tacky.

There is such as thing as over-"improving" a Kay (I wouldn't fit one with an extension, for instance). But as long as your goal is to keep it a Kay (and not a carved-wannabe), you'll be fine.

Play your Kay. Work with your luthier to find its best sound. Then invest in the fixes/maintenance necessary to keep it at its best sound for as long as possible. That's pretty much it.