Very old Bass w/ Lion head scroll

JamersonFeel · #1 08-29-2010, 08:46 PM

Hello fellow Bassists,
I have a very old bass that has a lion head and face for a scroll. It originally belonged to my grandfather but I have owned it since his death in 1996. I am interested in selling it but FIRST, I need some help from you guys on here.

I am trying to find out exactly where and when it was made, the type, the as is value, and so on. Inside the bass there is only one label that says it was repaired by a company called "Goltz and Mayne" in March of 1961 in Chicago. The address is 3109 N. Milwaulkee ave. The shop no longer exists nor can I find anything on the internet for Goltz and Mayne.

I know my grandpa owned it for over 50 years and possibly got it from his dad (my great-grandpa). So I know the bass has been in my family for allot of years. I am guessing the bass has to be over 100 years old. Since the intsrument has been in my family for so long, it is important to me to get what it is really worth if I am going to sell it. Even if i dont sell it It is still important to me to find out all the facts of the bass.

Please look over the pics I have of the bass and try to see if you know anything about it.I also have more I can email anyone. As of right now there is no bridge on it and it still has the old gut strings on it. Aside from that there is nothing wrong with it. Great shape, sounds great.
Anyone with important info can also contact me via email at Krisdonut@aol.com .....thanks!!!

Frank Larouche · #2 08-29-2010, 10:51 PM

Hello Kris,

I am in the market for a new bass and I would love to see more pics of this interesting bass! I look forward to see if someone have more info on it. Also where are you located?

Francis Larouche

Chris Symer · #3 08-30-2010, 12:17 AM

The lions head is VERY similar to my bass. Unfortunately my bass lacks a maker label as well so I can't help you much. I know of a couple of other basses with the same scroll that have about the same dimensions as mine and were all estimated to be from the later part of the 19th century.
Most (but not all) luthiers who have worked on my bass say it's probably from Mittenwald. I'd be interested in what you find out about yours. It should be well worth repairing, mine plays/sounds great.

tomshepp · #4 08-30-2010, 04:58 AM

You should take it to a respected luthier for an evaluation. They may be able to give you a time period and location of origin for the bass. You have a good amount of it's history, so that will help. They may also be able to give you an idea of what it's worth.

Tejano Bass · #5 08-30-2010, 06:45 AM

Quote:

As of right now there is no bridge on it and it still has the old gut strings on it. Aside from that there is nothing wrong with it. Great shape, sounds great.

. . . no bridge . . . sounds great . . .

JamersonFeel · #6 08-30-2010, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tejano Bass

. . . no bridge . . . sounds great . . .

lol...I took the bridge off so the wood wouldnt cave in.
But when it DOES have a bridge, it sounds great.

JamersonFeel · #7 08-30-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Symer

The lions head is VERY similar to my bass. Unfortunately my bass lacks a maker label as well so I can't help you much. I know of a couple of other basses with the same scroll that have about the same dimensions as mine and were all estimated to be from the later part of the 19th century.
Most (but not all) luthiers who have worked on my bass say it's probably from Mittenwald. I'd be interested in what you find out about yours. It should be well worth repairing, mine plays/sounds great.

Let me see a pic of your bass please.

JamersonFeel · #8 08-30-2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Larouche

Hello Kris,

I am in the market for a new bass and I would love to see more pics of this interesting bass! I look forward to see if someone have more info on it. Also where are you located?

Francis Larouche

Located in Chicago. Far north side. Please email me at Krisdonut@aol.com and I will reply with more pics. Talkbass only allows 2 pics on the thread. I have 4.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #9 08-30-2010, 09:27 AM

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/msg/1923463448.html

Steve Swan · #10 08-30-2010, 09:41 AM

The tuners are interesting. They look like those used by the H. N. White Company on King Moretone and American Standard plywood basses.

Jason Sypher · #11 08-30-2010, 10:03 AM

My advice is STOP everything you are doing. Take it off craigslist and get that bass into a professional bass shop for evaluation. Do not take ANY offer until you have it appraised. There must be a shop in Chicago but if that doesn't exist there is one in Cincinnati called the Bass Cellar. There is a lot that goes into appraisal, don't try to do this without real professional Doublebass help! You can start by getting some high res photos of the bass like the ones you see here http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...anormo-school/

Good luck.

crowsmengegus · #12 08-30-2010, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

The tuners are interesting. They look like those used by the H. N. White Company on King Moretone and American Standard plywood basses.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's a King Mortone. If I'm right, that makes it not older than 1930's, so not "very old" by DB standards. Here or here are some pics of a 1930's King Mortones to compare. Cool bass; the lion's head is unique looking.

JamersonFeel, can you post some better pics? Maybe a straight on shot so we can see the ffs? Also, is there an engraving on the tuner plate? If you have trouble attaching use an image hosting site like imgur.com and link the pics.

EDIT: Also, do what Jason said above. Although I'm pretty convinced as to what it is, maybe it's something worth more, in which case you shouldn't be fishing for offers on craigslist. A bass luthier could settle this very quickly. If you need recs for who to take it to in Chicago, ask us.

Eric Hochberg · #13 08-30-2010, 10:44 AM

I emailed the seller a good guy to take it to.

Steve Swan · #14 08-30-2010, 10:51 AM

It looks like some of the lion's "mullet" has been carved away to accept the corner of the plate of the retrofit H. N. White tuners. Darn shame.

JamersonFeel · #15 08-30-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

The tuners are interesting. They look like those used by the H. N. White Company on King Moretone and American Standard plywood basses.

Yes, I can see that there is one extra screw hole on each side that does not match up to the tuning plate. It is very well a replacement. Good eyes man!

JamersonFeel · #16 08-30-2010, 12:52 PM

Thank you everyone for your great advice! I did not expect to get these many replys so fast. Right on guys! I will be taking it off craigslist. I just wanted to see if anyone out there recognized it and could help. Also figured it wouldnt hurt to see what people offer. Does not mean I have to agree.

I will be taking it to someone that Eric has recommended to me. It just so happens that the guy is very close to where I live. I have a good feeling about it. I will be sure to let everyone know the facts as I get them. And I will also list a final asking price.

Thanks guys! - Kris

JamersonFeel · #17 08-30-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's a King Mortone. If I'm right, that makes it not older than 1930's, so not "very old" by DB standards. Here or here are some pics of a 1930's King Mortones to compare. Cool bass; the lion's head is unique looking.

JamersonFeel, can you post some better pics? Maybe a straight on shot so we can see the ffs? Also, is there an engraving on the tuner plate? If you have trouble attaching use an image hosting site like imgur.com and link the pics.

EDIT: Also, do what Jason said above. Although I'm pretty convinced as to what it is, maybe it's something worth more, in which case you shouldn't be fishing for offers on craigslist. A bass luthier could settle this very quickly. If you need recs for who to take it to in Chicago, ask us.

I took a look at the pics. I dont think it is a King Mortone. When it was repaired in 1961 is possibly when the new tuners and tuning plate were added. A Guy I talked to earlier today says he used to own a bass that was identical to mine. The lion face exactly the same and same body/wood. He says his bass was a Julious Rudolph made in 1884. So we are not sure yet, but the one I have could be it's twin brother. Take a look at the pics of his bass to compare. Pretty damn close I think.

JamersonFeel · #18 08-30-2010, 01:18 PM

I dont know if this is going to help but here is one more photo I forgot to include before. Its a good shot of it's back.

Ed Fuqua · #19 08-30-2010, 01:27 PM

That's Mike Ross, he's a nice cat and a great player. I remember that bass sounding really great.

Jason Sypher · #20 08-30-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamersonFeel

I took a look at the pics. I dont think it is a King Mortone. When it was repaired in 1961 is possibly when the new tuners and tuning plate were added. A Guy I talked to earlier today says he used to own a bass that was identical to mine. The lion face exactly the same and same body/wood. He says his bass was a Julious Rudolph made in 1884. So we are not sure yet, but the one I have could be it's twin brother. Take a look at the pics of his bass to compare. Pretty damn close I think.

But the photo on the left is a gamba shaped instrument, no violin corners....no outer bindings...

The scroll looks grafted on as well...

I wish we could get some more photos. There's so much info missing here. The back looks a little like a Hawkes Riviere but without the button, I got nothing. We need a lot of photos to zero in on this at all.