We know all about Kings and Kays ... here's some Strunal history....

PaulKing · #1 12-02-2008, 04:46 AM

There's very little info around about the history of European student ply basses, even though there are loads of them around still keeping budget bassists happy decades later.

And while legend (and value) grows around Kays and Kings over the pond, giving them their very own iconic status, what of the mighty fine Czech and German made plys that (presumably) kept British 2WW forces going, provided the thump in all those dance bands up and down the country, and are still keeping people like me playing today?

Having owned a modern Strunal, then picked up an old Czech import (B+H Excelsior range, model 50/7N labelled "Artia"), I wondered if they might have come from the same factory. They did, 40 years apart.

I've been in touch with someone at Strunal who's been exporting instruments since 1968, she had a lot of answers. The factory at Luby, once called Cremona, now Strunal (standing for "Stringed Instruments from Luby") has been supplying Europe and the US with decent student basses since at least the 1940s.

read more here

GerardSamija · #2 12-02-2008, 07:17 PM

'Cremona' basses ... 'decent'? Maybe the ones you get where you live. The Dvorak Cremona laminated basses I've worked on over the past 15+ years have been pretty much uniformly dismal, horrid things, a struggle to make sound usable at all. They weigh 5 to 10 pounds more than most student basses except the Gliga Genial line, which come fairly close - though they're carved, making the weight that much harder to understand. I finally managed to get a halfway-decent tone out of a Cremona bass last year by using a lot of time in tweaking the setup, and enhancing that yet further with a 'Chuck Traeger' style maple soundpost. I've since had modest but useful success on several other laminated basses using this hourglass-shaped soundpost, so will keep trying it whenever overly quiet laminated instruments wander into the shop.

But seriously. I've come to refer to the Cremona as 'great for knocking down doors' as I've never yet seen substantial damage to one of these monsters. And the most painful aspect of these boulders is that it's often teenaged girls stuck playing them, bassists about 3 times the weight of their basses. That's not a very friendly ratio, when it comes to packing a bass around.

MIKMAN · #3 12-02-2008, 11:02 PM

Dear Gerard, the Cremona basses you are talking about are the Czech made basses or the horrendous Chinese crap?

GerardSamija · #4 12-02-2008, 11:23 PM

I suppose they could have been Chinese-made, but then the labels would have been false, as all of the Cremona basses I've seen have carried a small label inside saying 'made in Czechoslovakia' (as memory serves - it's been a while since last looking at one... might have been 'made in Czech Republic'). Wouldn't be the first time Chinese products carried misinformation on the label. I recall Leonard Lee of Lee Valley Tools writing an article in their catalogue years ago saying that he had been approached by a large Chinese toolmaker offering labels like 'Swiss Made' or 'Made in Germany' for no extra charge. Even offering to stamp it into metal tool parts.

But from the beech wood used for the necks and the general style, my guess is that these are in fact Czech. Lately I've worked on some rather decent sounding if very cheap Chinese laminated basses - check out bonerattle.com - and a couple of rather expensive ones too, with extraordinary wood, workmanship, and sound. One came through a large shop in Atlanta last year, sold there as 'made in California by an Italian luthier'... but it was obviously the top-of-the-line model from a premium Chinese factory, who list the bass as wholesaling for between $7k and $8k. The label didn't really hide the fact there. One only had to google the maker's name to find the actual source. And no European nor North American maple or spruce look much like what I saw in that instrument.

Anyway, I don't mean to say that all Strunal stuff is awful. I've worked on a few more refined, if still slightly over-built laminated Strunals which sounded rather pleasant. Not exactly cannons, but suitable for entry level to intermediate studies without discouraging a young player. That's important, as so many students have been held back and even often abandoned studies due to terrible, hard to play instruments.

PaulKing · #5 12-03-2008, 02:59 AM

1. Modern basses labelled 'Cremona' have no relation whatsoever to the factory of the same name in Luby. We all know there are many recycled instrument names around, most being used in China. But you're right that in 1992the new private company Strunal took over the old state-run Cremona factory in Luby, and began exporting basses under the label Josef Jan Dvorak. Not a good vote of confidence for their quality then.

2. I'm not commenting on modern Strunals, although 'where I live' they are a lot better than the typical Chinese crap stocked by 99% of music shops. I certainly think they are comparable to similar priced Englehardts for example, from what I've read. And given you can't easily get Engles over here, I'm happy to take a Strunal as an alternative. They are anything but quiet, or heavy. My Strunal 50/4 was significantly louder than my carved bass, and the tone wasn't half bad, if a little nasal. Of course there are crappy modern basses around, and those labelled Cremona may well be among them. There are probably crappy basses made in Czech Republic too. And in America come to that.

3. The whole bloody point of my post was to draw attention to the woeful lack of information about mid 20thC European made laminate basses (mainly German and Czech) which I defy you to dismiss as uniformly poor quality, even compared to the hallowed / collected / celebrated Kays and Kings, that were after all, only work-horse laminates themselves, even if they did get a stars-and-stripes number sticker on the inside.

4. I found it interesting to trace the history of my own, beautiful sounding bass (come and play it if you wish), my 9th bass which I've found after 20 years of searching. My luthier agrees with me.

5. Having found SOME information about the production of these basses, I might have taken the first small step toward understanding the quality or otherwise of some of the many old ply basses around that are simply described 'probably Czech'. You ask for a date, a factory ... no-one knows.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say to people here one day "You've got an old Czech laminate have you? Does it have a label ... ah, we know where they came from and they were pretty good / awful..."

GerardSamija · #6 12-03-2008, 03:26 AM

On point #3; my apologies, as perhaps it seems I've hijacked your very valuable perspective in posting this thread with what must seem a bit of a red herring. If a moderator should feel it is so, then perhaps one might wade in here and correct things somewhat. But that was not at all my intention, and I am sorry if my comments have offended you or detracted from this thread.

I was addressing, for clarification, some elements regarding this company's history regarding student-aimed laminates sold in North America. I have no was of knowing what Strunal has sold in the UK, or even in the US for that matter, as none of these has to my knowledge crossed my path. Close to all of the many dozens of Dvorak Cremona model basses and all of the more recent, better-made Strunal-labeled basses I've seen have been sold by one company, all within Canada: Long & McQuade. This distributor has used these basses as the core if their rental program, besides selling a great many. Pricing on the Cremona model ranged from about $1,700 to over $2,800, though quality did not really differ significantly from bass to bass until just the past several years.

It sounds from this last post of yours in point #2 that the models in question here don't really compare very closely with what is on offer in your homeland. Great for you! Not so great here... but as I said, that is improving, as I have seen none of the Cremona model coming through since about 2000 or so, new I mean. And I rarely see them even old, as they're either gathering dust somewhere, or they're so sturdily built as not to need repairs very often. I saw a couple with scroll cheeks split alongside the chin owing to green wood havinig been used, and many more with some evidence of excessive shrinkage at the little riser piece in the neck heel (about 1 inch of inserted wood being typical between button and true neck heel), but none have outright failed at either end. So once set up, it's a matter of waiting for worn fingerboards or warped (they were cut a bit too thinly) bridges.

Best of luck in finding out as much as you can in this certainly worthwhile research. For my part, I hope only to have contributed something a little bit useful towards a more complete overall picture of this company's output. Useful for contrast if nothing else perhaps.

PaulKing · #7 12-03-2008, 03:43 AM

Yeah this Cremona thing is interesting, thanks for clarification.

I was lead to believe they stopped using that name in labels altogether in 1992, but a quick google for 'Josep Jan Dvorak Cremona' throws up a bevy of violins for sale in the States.

I know of 'Cremona SB1' basses and such like, I think they're Chinese ones , nowt to do with Strunal.

Certainly the student Strunals currently available are a pleasant surprise, for the price.

GerardSamija · #8 12-03-2008, 03:55 AM

Okay, I'll take that under consideration. Seems possible that what I've seen were Chinese made, perhaps using European wood for the necks? No Chinese-labeled bass I've yet seen shares this beech wood neck, so the Dvorak Cremona sort of stands out in that regard. The tuners have certainly looked to be of better-than-average Chinese make, but most tuners seem to be made in China where student basses are concerned, no matter where the instruments might be made.

My two cents on the legendary qualities of Kay basses; not so much. I have worked with a few which have been excellent, almost shockingly good sound in one case. But more often Kay basses, especially those made after about 1950, sound rather less impressive. They've not been bad, just nothing special. I'd probably take a circa 1970 Suzuki student model over most Kay basses, though as I said, the odd one has been very impressive. Not a lot of King nor American Standard basses get out this way, so not enough data for much of an informed opinion except to say that one 7/8ths size AS has been very strong, a couple of others similar to an average Kay.

PaulKing · #9 12-03-2008, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GerardSamija

My two cents on the legendary qualities of Kay basses; not so much.

Aha .. you revealed my ulterior motive! Not that I've even played a Kay ever, I just can't believe they're worth so much more hype than a bass like ... mine, for example.

I think the Cremona Dvoraks you've seen probably do come from Czech republic. Dvorak is definitely a name Strunal have used until very recently, but I don't know if the pre-Strunal Cremona factory used that name.
It'd be interesting to know their dates... pre 1992 = state run Cremona factory. Since then, private Strunal company, improving production all the time.

robgrow · #10 12-03-2008, 04:49 AM

PaulKing, Thanks for your post. I find it interesting that around the same time that the company that would eventually become Strunal came into being, Framus was being organized by Fred Wilfer in West Germany "to help resettle luthiers displaced from Schönbach/Sudetenland" in the wake of World War II. I also find it interesting that Strunal is not far from Markneukirchen in Germany, which is of course also very well known for string instruments. Obviously there has long been a lot of very talented craftsmen in that part of the world regardless of political boundaries.

GerardSamija · #11 12-03-2008, 04:55 AM

It could well be that the Canadian company (several, actually, as I recall two other shops not L&McQ selling them at times) bought up quite a large stock in the early 1990's, then gradually sold them through that decade. I've no evidence to support that, so only a guess.

Bass Barrister · #12 12-03-2008, 07:44 AM

Just to muddy the waters on the Strunal history, it appears that, for some years, basses from the Luby factory were marketed under the name "Josef Lidl". Josef Lidl was, and remains, a brass instrument maker, well known for its pre-WWII french horns. Like most private concerns, J. Lidl was nationalized in the 1940s/50s to become the Czech State Musical Instrument Enterprise (this included such names as Petrof pianos, Cerveny brass, etc.). After the fall of communism in the late 1980s, these enterprises were gradually privatised and. At some point, a distribuation group was formed called "Lidl Music". Here is the US, Lidl was represented by Geneva-Intl. Corp., importer (and part owner) of Petrof Piano. They sold stringed instruments under the name Lorenz, Moselle, and Lidl, and well as J. Lidl brass. A couple of years ago, all this fell apart. Geneva and Petrof were engaged in litigation in the USA, the Czech Republic, and the EU Court of Commercial Arbitration.

Somewhere, in all this, the stringed instruments formerly marketed as Lidl in the US began appearing under the "Strunal" name.

Go figure.

PaulKing · #13 12-03-2008, 08:15 AM

One thing is clear, the label names are pretty unreliable. That's not gonna help clear anything up.
It doesn't look like there'll ever be a websilte listing the model numbers of European basses, let alone individual instrument numbers...

Mine happens to be labelled as 'Artia'.
'Artia' is a label name the Cremona factory used for exports to England between 62-67.
But Artia was also the name of the State bureau responsible for export of cultural goods, as well as the name of the State run music publishing house.
I suppose the Artia label could have been used by any Czech factory on its export instruments.

But this thread (and sister thread at rabbass.com) is already the most comprehensive collection of information on the subject I've set eyes on.

GerardSamija · #14 12-04-2008, 02:36 PM

Here's a photo of a label in a Dvorak Cremona bass which walked in this morning for a bit of a fingerboard dressing. Hope this helps clarify which basses I've been talking about, in referring to heavy, dead-sounding instruments from this factory. The bass in hand weighs in at exactly 23 pounds, so it seems either my memory is out of whack (quite possible), or this one's different because it's one of the models made lighter deliberately. I think the latter, as the laminated back is rather thin on the edges of this one, and the belly is carved spruce, showing a very reasonable 6.5mm (just a hair over 1/4") at the f-holes. It's a standard 3/4 size, with a scale of 42.25" and has real ebony fingerboard and tailpiece.

PaulKing · #15 12-05-2008, 03:19 AM

That's pretty clear ... made at the Cremona factory in Luby, in CZECHOSLOVAKIA. That country ceased to exist in 1992, splitting into the independent Czech and Slovak republics.

So these basses date from 1992 at the latest. If nothing else, it distances them from the current Strunal company.

Though Strunal continued to use that label name on its exports (Joseph Jan Dvorak) almost until the current day. I think they just label them Strunal now, though any company that bought stock in recent years will presumanbly be knocking out Dvorak labelled basses for a while yet.

This is all fantastically nerdy eh?

moles · #16 12-05-2008, 03:38 AM

The weird thing about all that, is the label on my Strunal 50/4 reads almost exactly as the one Gerard just posted - except that it says Handcrafted by Strunal, and names Czech Republic (as far as I remember) as the country.

The plot thickens....

PaulKing · #17 12-05-2008, 04:02 AM

Actually, it might distance them in time, but take a look at this label, they haven't changed the design of that so much!

Would be interesting to see the bass shape too, see if the basses themselves have moved on ... current Strunals have a distinctive tapering lip on the front and rear edges (the projecting lip of the front and back taper away to nothing along the top of the shoulders), internal linings, quite coarse peg-box and scroll carving... but are quite pretty. Here's the one I had until recently.

It has better tone, and plays better than any new stock bass I've played in any music shop in the UK...

GerardSamija · #18 12-05-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulKing

... interesting to see the bass shape too...

Sorry, too late for that spruce-topped model. I got the fingerboard done, mended a broken tuner shaft, and sent it on its way. Seems it may be back next year to be sold, as the player is about ready to move on.

moles · #19 12-05-2008, 11:14 PM

That's the same label I've got in mine, Paul. Saves me from gettin out the camera myself.

I had one of the newer ones with the tapered edges on the top bout - I remember thinking that maybe they started using a slightly wider neck block, and just didn't change the template for the top and back. It's hard to say for sure - I only had it for a week or two, and it was while mine was getting work done, so I couldn't do a side by side comparison.

I also had one I was renting for a bit before I bought mine, that had quite a wider shape in the upper bout. Not quite like a Cleveland, but getting there. More of a traditional wide-shouldered Gamba shape. Again, no direct comparison - but it was quite noticeable, so I don't think I was imagining that one.

Gearhead43 · #20 12-06-2008, 01:27 AM

I would love to have a nice ply Strunal.

I see them as a good value in lower-priced basses, and a good alternative to Engelhardt. ( especially if a more conventional neck profile is desired ) I am a pretty big Kay / Engel fan, but I want to try (and own!

) as many basses as possible and Strunal is on my list.

I have heard very good things about the newer ply Strunals.

I also want to find a nice 50s era German ply (really want one of those, bad) .

One day my music room us going to look like yours, Paul.

How many basses do you have now?