What "level" of Double Bass? College student buying his next bass...

funkadelickbass · #1 02-23-2010, 03:21 PM

Hi, I'm kind of new the the Double/"real bass" realm on this forum...only been on DB for about 6 months, but I am head over heels in love with it!

My back ground:
I live in Milwaukee, currently studying Double Bass (Jazz mostly, but just started classical) at UW-Milwaukee. Looking for that "serious student" / "semi-pro" bass...currently playing a Romanian made Laminate (great bass) but really longing for that "carved sound" ever since I started using a bow.

My question:
What is the difference between a "student bass" and a "professional bass". Now I am not thinking I will become a virtuoso symphony Bassist, but who knows anything is possible with enough practice. I've come to the conclusion/acceptance that I have to spent a good chunk of change for the "right" bass.
If I buy a $5-8K bass now, and get "really good"...say good enough to maybe play in a symphony or teach at a college level (I'm a music ed major)...would I need to get a "1700's Italian made $80,000+ " Bass to playing/teach in those type of groups?

Herbie 80's · #2 02-23-2010, 03:29 PM

No, you wouldn't need an $80,000+ bass.

Get a nice carved bass that sounds good to you. Take a luthier, or your teacher with you, though.

Also.. what's wrong with your bass now? You're only 6 months in.. maybe buying a $5,000 instrument now is a bit premature?

funkadelickbass · #3 02-23-2010, 06:32 PM

I see why you'd say premature...I am only 6 months in on DB, however I entered as a Bass Guitar (Jazz)...I basically want to use the best bass I can afford. Yes I am "new" but I am not just a music student, I am a serious music student. I really don't want to be limited by my instrument.
Also nothing is "wrong" with my bass, it works great in the jazz trio setting. I really don't like the tone as much when in the orchestra. Could just be the strings, but I don't want to lose the tone it has for when I am in the trio. I've been in the market for my "next" bass for only a little while, I'm just trying to educate myself as much as possible for when I do make the trips to the shops I know what I am really looking for.

I realize that the $80k was a bit ridiculous...I guess that I really meant is: Are the more affordable carved basses considered as professional as some to the more "vintage" (guitar guy, sorry if the term is off) instruments?

Herbie 80's · #4 02-23-2010, 06:57 PM

There are quite a few good carved basses out there for $5,000 - $8,000. If you feel that it is time for you to move up on the DB scale, and you can afford it, do so. Some people don't like to be attached to a particular bass because it can limit their abilities.

However, keep in mind that strings can add a new dimension to your bass. Even simple upgrades can.

Also, not all professionals use carved basses. Even some jazz players. Just because something is carved doesn't mean that it may sound better to you than a plywood or hybrid.

Go around and shop a bit before you make a decision. Take a while to think about it.

drurb · #5 02-23-2010, 07:43 PM

I always say that one should get the best instrument (within reason) that he/she can afford. The complexity of tone provided by a carved top isn't just for arco. I've always appreciated and desired the difference for jazz pizz. Seems most pros agree! Indeed, there is quite a selection of hybrid and carved basses available at prices more down to earth than $80k.

Keep in mind, something I've posted a number of times:
Do not, however, be fooled. There are entry level carved basses that, from many standpoints, are far less desirable than a quality ply! Think of ply, hybrid, and carved as three overlapping distributions (bell-curves, if you will), with the mean value of "quality" being lowest for the plys, intermediate for the hybrids, and highest for the carved ones.

fdeck · #6 02-23-2010, 08:22 PM

In addition to the wise comments above, I would add one more: It is common for an inexpensive bass to be furnished with a cheap bow. The best "upgrade" that I have ever made to my plywood bass is a high quality bow.

And now that I know the difference, I would be loath to try out new basses without a good bow. Bringing along my bow when I try basses gives me one factor that I can hold constant.

Bass Junkie · #7 02-23-2010, 08:34 PM

Have you had your bass looked at by a luthier to see if anything can be done to make it better for you? Maybe a couple hundred dollars spent on your bass will get you by for a couple of years. As mentioned, new strings, better bow, etc., can make a big difference.

Square Bear · #8 02-23-2010, 10:22 PM

if you're looking in the 5k range, you should check out the wan-bernadels from string emporium. i'm playing on one in grad school (going for a second performance degree in classical bass) and it's totally sufficient. sounds better than a lot of basses i've heard that go for quite a bit more IMO. worth looking at anyways. find a bass that you really love. the inspiration and motivation a good instrument can provide is absolutely priceless.

AMJBASS · #9 02-24-2010, 06:01 AM

In addition to the advice above. While you don't necessarily need to spend $8000 on bass right now, it is very important that when you do buy a bass that is set up very well. There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a plywood(laminate) or a hybrid(carved top, laminated back and sides), and then upgrading later. Or even better, holding onto that bass as a backup. There are so many really well made laminate basses now that if you buy from a reputable double bass dealer, you are going to have a quality instrument that you can play for many years before needing to upgrade.

Andrew McGregor · #10 02-24-2010, 06:09 AM

So, some instruments have a bundle of antique value built into the price, and you don't want one of those. Not because they're not fantastic, but because you need value for money and a bass that is as structurally sound as you can get. So you want something relatively recent, or new.

+1 several times over on the bow. A great bow can make a mediocre instrument work for orchestra or classical solo way better than a mediocre bow can make a great instrument work. A few hundred invested in the bow can get you as much as many thousands in the instrument. Carbon fiber is the way to go, again because there's no antique or rarity value in it, only the making.

+1 on strings. That may take some thinking, but it IS possible to get a good jazz tone on a bass set up for classical solo, and you can play that in the orchestra no problem. It may not be the same jazz tone as you're looking for, and it will probably be brighter than many orchestra players might use... but then, spirocore solos tuned to orchestra pitch are a common choice, as are spiro weichs, so you might be surprised.

So, upgrade your bow to something great (Coda or Metropolitan would be my call for your situation), put a set of weichs or solos on your bass and learn not to scratch on them, see if that works for you. If it doesn't, or you feel the need to keep one bass for jazz and one for the orchestra, then find a bass.

PsychoScout · #11 02-24-2010, 06:52 AM

I agree on the bow. My classical teacher has a 6K bow and it feels sooooo great, it lifts up any instrument and it seems it plays itself. (love that bow)

Bruce Lindfield · #12 02-24-2010, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew McGregor

So, some instruments have a bundle of antique value built into the price, and you don't want one of those. Not because they're not fantastic, but because you need value for money and a bass that is as structurally sound as you can get. So you want something relatively recent, or new.

That sounds like the "Classic Car" Market - so it would be great to own a 1960s Jaguar, Ferrari, Alpha Romeo etc. - but the maintenance and work you would have to put in, would be enormous! Much more practical to have a modern Honda or similar!!

uprightbass.com · #13 02-24-2010, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

That sounds like the "Classic Car" Market - so it would be great to own a 1960s Jaguar, Ferrari, Alpha Romeo etc. - but the maintenance and work you would have to put in, would be enormous! Much more practical to have a modern Honda or similar!!

One of the stronger argument against new basses are that they depreciate for years before appreciating. When I bought an old bass in college and later found something better, I was able to sell it for more than what I paid + inflation. It doesn't matter however if you never sell it.

Bruce Lindfield · #14 02-24-2010, 08:23 AM

Same as cars - new ones depreciate dramatically in the 1st 3 years - whereas a "Classic" will hold its value and good ones go up in value, as they get rarer!

funkadelickbass · #15 02-24-2010, 10:55 AM

I have a pretty good bow. My orchestra teacher actually said to get anything but a carbon bow...she's kinda "old school" (so she says)...I have a French style hofner (german made) Brazilwood bow. she says it is a great bow for what I am doing right now, her only issue with it, to her taste that is, is the tip weight.

As for strings...I think I have spirocores on right now, not sure when I bought it the shop said that's what they thought were on it. A and D string are fine, but E is kind of hollow, and the G is REALLY tin like and hollow (this is from my professor) when bowed. For pizz with an amp in the trio it does sound pretty good though.

kmanley_29649 · #16 02-24-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkadelickbass

I have a pretty good bow. My orchestra teacher actually said to get anything but a carbon bow...she's kinda "old school" (so she says)...I have a French style hofner (german made) Brazilwood bow. she says it is a great bow for what I am doing right now, her only issue with it, to her taste that is, is the tip weight.

As for strings...I think I have spirocores on right now, not sure when I bought it the shop said that's what they thought were on it. A and D string are fine, but E is kind of hollow, and the G is REALLY tin like and hollow (this is from my professor) when bowed. For pizz with an amp in the trio it does sound pretty good though.

I would try out some new strings before I throw down several thousand on a new bass, but that's just me. If you are dead set on a new carved bass, then the Shen Rogeri Willow is a really good one to look into.

uprightbass.com · #17 02-24-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkadelickbass

I have a pretty good bow. My orchestra teacher actually said to get anything but a carbon bow...she's kinda "old school" (so she says)...I have a French style hofner (german made) Brazilwood bow. she says it is a great bow for what I am doing right now, her only issue with it, to her taste that is, is the tip weight.

As for strings...I think I have spirocores on right now, not sure when I bought it the shop said that's what they thought were on it. A and D string are fine, but E is kind of hollow, and the G is REALLY tin like and hollow (this is from my professor) when bowed. For pizz with an amp in the trio it does sound pretty good though.

Try the Velvet Animas since in my opinion they have the advantages of Spirocores for pizz + the advantages of the gut-like tone and they are pretty easy to bow. They bow a lot better than Spiros. It's like having the clarity of the Spirocores with the lower tension and bottom end of gut strings. The ringing is more like a bell since it's copper wound instead of chrome. Definitely not tinny, but still has the top end brightness. I can't say enough good things about them. Big warning: your instructor most likely will not like them since she's old school and they are very different in feel than any other strings out there. She probably know this already, but there are a lot bassists in major symphonies, instructors and musicians that swear by carbon fiber for bows in the lower to mid end price range.

funkadelickbass · #18 02-24-2010, 11:44 AM

She likes Flexicore strings (i forget who makes them), one of the other guys has them on one of his basses and they seem "flabby?" or loose to the touch...to me that is...but that could be his setup...but either way after reading about them the are mainly an arco string.

Also I think I should explain...I'm not running out this week and buying a bass. My goal is to play at least 10 basses in my range (5-8k or more if it is "the one") and strongly considering each of them before I lay down the cash. I don't plan to have the bass until sometime in the summer. Also because I am in class right now I can't be road tripping to actually play basses right now. There are a few places within 100mi of me that I may try to get out and try some on weekends, but I set the bar at 10 basses before I buy...

uprightbass.com · #19 02-24-2010, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkadelickbass

She likes Flexicore strings (i forget who makes them), one of the other guys has them on one of his basses and they seem "flabby?" or loose to the touch...to me that is...but that could be his setup...but either way after reading about them the are mainly an arco string.

Also I think I should explain...I'm not running out this week and buying a bass. My goal is to play at least 10 basses in my range (5-8k or more if it is "the one") and strongly considering each of them before I lay down the cash. I don't plan to have the bass until sometime in the summer. Also because I am in class right now I can't be road tripping to actually play basses right now. There are a few places within 100mi of me that I may try to get out and try some on weekends, but I set the bar at 10 basses before I buy...

Flexocor Originals (made by Pirastro) are very popular for orchestral and very old school. Not that they are bad, I used them in college, but they are dark, have a big bottom and don't have the sustain, high-mids and top end like Spirocores that most jazz players prefer. Flexocor 92's are similar, but slightly brighter and tighter than the originals. If you think Flexocors are loose, maybe the Velvet Animas won't work for you, since they are a lot lower and looser in tension.

AMJBASS · #20 02-24-2010, 01:38 PM

I wouldn't recommend Animas. They are outstanding pizz strings, but if you are concentrating a lot on the bow, they aren't particularly forgiving in terms of response. They are decent however. The Pirastro Regular(not original) Flexocor will give you a dark sound. The Original Flexocor are high tension strings. The Regular Flexocor(sometimes called Flexocor 92) are flexible and easy to play. However, unless you want a REALLY dark pizz tone, they aren't always the best choice for jazz.