What is the stratovarius of the Double Bass?

SamJ · #1 06-07-2006, 10:35 PM

I'm just curious from a both collectable to a sound quality vantage.. what is the holy grail of double bass? Old or new? I imagine old can be several hundred years old.. no?

jazzbass72 · #2 06-07-2006, 11:12 PM

Hmm, you mean Stradivarius, Stratocaster, or a mixture of the two?! Well, God bless them both!

brooklynbassed · #3 06-07-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

There are several great Italian Basses in the world that will be seen by only a few. The d'Salo that Dragonetti played is on that list.

I happen to have a Bass that was copied from a Strad Cello. In this period the Stainer and Amati models were the ones chiefly copied. Strad was just coming into vogue at that time. This Bass was blown up from the Cello with top and back graduations included. Usually a Bass is thinner in proportion to a Cello or Violin but in this case not. The graduations also rise under the soundpost and the bassbar for added support. In its nearly 200 years, the top has never cracked or sunken in. Sometime in the latter part of the 19th century, the shoulders were slightly reduced. Here is one of the Grails on my list, an original Samuel Gilkes, London 1814. Built in the period of King George II. Gilkes was the head Cello maker for the shop of William Forster III at this time of which shop was also the maker to the King; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...GilkesBass.htm

The Gilkes is currently in its first full restoration in over 100 years since it was cut down from its original form and this was possibly done by Joseph Tarr. I have seen a Bass by J.Tarr in the peroid he worked for Cole that looks to be a fairly good copy of this with the exception of the sloped shoulders and Tarr's own ff holes including the wood that was used and the tuners that were fitted on the Gilkes at that time. This Bass came over to America shortly after WWII where it was found by a Bassist touring with the 7th Army Symphony just after the War and during the rebuild of Europe. It has never been opened up in this country before now.

Although this is not a 300-400 year old Italian Bass, the purfling work which on this Bass is 7-layers is no less than equal to the 'miter' work of Strad for which Gilkes was noted for in his best work and is highly evident here. This Bass being not the best I have owned or seen is still after all is measured up, my Holy Grail dubbed by me as "The Royal Gilkes".

+1 on that, Ken. And, If one is wealthy enough, then the rarified air of something like The d'Salo, Stainer or an Amati can be sampled (i didn't use THAT word, did i?) for an astronmical sum.

Question/Answer ... Call and Response

Akami · #4 06-08-2006, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzbass72

Hmm, you mean Stradivarius, Stratocaster, or a mixture of the two?! Well, God bless them both!

Jimi Hendrix painted all kinds of psychadelic doodlings on his Strat-o-various colors which he later burned Down in Monterey.

Anon2962 · #5 06-08-2006, 04:04 AM

What about the Itlian 'G's, ie Guadagnini etc.?

Bruce Lindfield · #6 06-08-2006, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I have played two Guads before. Nice Italian Basses but no 'Grail there...

I've been fortunate to be in the audience at big concerts in London, where violin virtuosi have played a Stradivarius violin - Itzhak Perlman,Vengerov etc.

There is a feeling that you can really hear how beautiful the tone is in isolation or with an orchestra and that you can hear how the instrument contributes - but I'm not sure how easy it would be with a bass - what would you be looking/listening for?

Is there a sense in which nobody at around the same time was actually making a "solo" bass, so there can really be no direct equivalent?

bassmonkeee · #7 06-08-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

My guess is that young Fendt was assisted by his Father working in the Betts shop and this Bass was made to look older when new and possibly was sold as a real Maggini back then. This was common practice in olde London 200 years ago with the new hunger for old Italian instruments. No books, no Internet and no pictures to go by. Many a Strad and Guarneri was forged in these times as well but not limited to these makers.

So, Fender Relics are a 200 year old idea?

EFischer1 · #8 06-08-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I don't a Stainer would match the power or the great Italians or English makers.

...That is quite a statement to make considering that Jacob Stainer instruments were owned by no less of musicians than J.S. Bach and Leopold Mozart.

SamJ · #9 06-08-2006, 08:31 AM

Thanks Ken and all... and sorry for the t instead of d in the name.. didn't ever bother checking the proper spelling, I just knew they were very well made, very rare and very expensive.

So are there people playing such double basses at the symphony or are these more for collectors and museum displays? I can't see a musician in a symphony orchestra being that well paid so as to have on in his rotation.. I imagine that the age of the instrument, as well as the wood it's made from must have a great effect on the quality of the sound, no? Is that not one of the theories about the stradivarious' sound?

As for me personally, I would love nothing more than to own an instrument that JS Bach held in his hands.. even if I couldn't enjoy playing it myself!

djcruse · #10 06-08-2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFischer1

...That is quite a statement to make considering that Jacob Stainer instruments were owned by no less of musicians than J.S. Bach and Leopold Mozart.

Ken didn't say they weren't great instruments - he just said they didn't have the POWER some others did/do.

anonymous0726 · #11 06-08-2006, 08:49 AM

The MOST valuable instrument will always be yourself; Talent, creativity, and most importantly, hard work.

Bruce Lindfield · #12 06-08-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcruse

Ken didn't say they weren't great instruments - he just said they didn't have the POWER some others did/do.

That's part of what I was talking about - do you choose a bass for pure beauty of sound (as you might a violin) or volume, "bassiness"...etc. ?

kontrabass · #13 06-08-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

The MOST valuable instrument will always be yourself; Talent, creativity, and most importantly, hard work.

+1

Steve Boisen · #14 06-08-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

The d'salo I mentioned is in a Museum and not for sale.

Isn't this the bass that was returned to a church or monestary per Dragonetti's will? It's kept in storage and sedlom seen by anyone. I think there was a thread on the 2xbass list a while back about a bassist in Italy who finally talked his way in and was allowed to play it.

Or maybe I'm thinking of a different Dragonetti bass.

- Steve

My web page

ispider6 · #15 06-08-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Parker

The MOST valuable instrument will always be yourself; Talent, creativity, and most importantly, hard work.

There's a funny anecdote about Yehudi Menuhin. One evening after a concert, a member of the audience approached him and said "Yehudi, thank you for the wonderful performance. Your violin sounds beautiful." Yehudi looked at his violin, held it up to his ear and said "That's funny, I don't hear anything."

In my opinion, sound is at least 75% musician, 25% instrument.

SamJ · #16 06-08-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ispider6

In my opinion, sound is at least 75% musician, 25% instrument.

good point, but if you're skill as a musician is at it's maximum, then that additional 25% the instrument can contribute can make or break whether you're being heard at your best.

I always say, buy the best instrument you can, this way there is no excuse but your own skill if you don't sound good!

ispider6 · #17 06-08-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamJ

I always say, buy the best instrument you can, this way there is no excuse but your own skill if you don't sound good!

Yep, you're right. Obviously, the best situation is to play your best with the best equipment (for you). That should result in the best sound you're capable of.

Paul Warburton · #18 06-09-2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Boisen

Isn't this the bass that was returned to a church or monestary per Dragonetti's will? It's kept in storage and sedlom seen by anyone. I think there was a thread on the 2xbass list a while back about a bassist in Italy who finally talked his way in and was allowed to play it.

Or maybe I'm thinking of a different Dragonetti bass.

- Steve

My web page

No Steve, your'e not thinking of a different Dragonetti.
Let's play detective....OK?Check the search function on the top of your BASSES AREA ( DOUBLE BASSES OF COURSE )
Do a good search and the mystery bassist will appear.
Italian, not American. The mystery bassist was playing with Pharoah Sanders

jmpiwonka · #19 06-09-2006, 09:40 AM

Pauly, was it a different bass than the one in this thread.
Dragonetti's Bass

EFischer1 · #20 06-09-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

That is pure Ego tripping on his part. Can he sound like he did with the Strad tone wise playing a $99. Chinese violin?

Did you ever play several Basses and notice that the better ones sound better and sweeter with the bow? Well that's how he SOUNDS, but can also play better.

I think that what he is trying to explain is that each player has his own sound. I sound like me whether i'm playing my bass, a friend's, or a gagliano. Similarly, a horrible player would still have a horrible sound, even if he was playing a great instrument. It is this sound that requires constant attention and development to master.