What's the "Fender P-Bass" of DB's?

[velvetphil]

Hey guys, here's a semi-newbie question for you:

I've been playing more and more upright recently, but I'm primarily an electric player. It's easy to say the baseline (pun intended) of electrics are the Fender P and J's - nearly every EB can be compared to them in some way. Is there an equivalent in the DB world?

I guess I'm asking because I don't know much about modern DB manufacturers, and I want to get a good, "won't let me down" type bass. Is it the mass-produced Cleveland or La Scala? The Upton basses? A Shen? A Kay/Engelhardt? For my purposes, we're talking about a plywood or possibly hybrid bass. To continue the metaphor, I don't need a Sadowsky or a Fodera, I just need an American Standard P-bass, if you take my meaning.

Any thoughts?

Phil

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by velvetphil

Hey guys, here's a semi-newbie question for you:

I've been playing more and more upright recently, but I'm primarily an electric player. It's easy to say the baseline (pun intended) of electrics are the Fender P and J's - nearly every EB can be compared to them in some way. Is there an equivalent in the DB world?

I guess I'm asking because I don't know much about modern DB manufacturers, and I want to get a good, "won't let me down" type bass. Is it the mass-produced Cleveland or La Scala? The Upton basses? A Shen? A Kay/Engelhardt? For my purposes, we're talking about a plywood or possibly hybrid bass. To continue the metaphor, I don't need a Sadowsky or a Fodera, I just need an American Standard P-bass, if you take my meaning.

Any thoughts?

Phil

I get your meaning but I imagine somebody around here might take offense at the comparison. Nothing equivalent exists. The DB is a very old instrument stretching back 3 centuries. The Fender Bass is a newbie in comparison...and it's a guitar.

I get what you're asking though.

The more precise question is what do YOU want for your next double bass?

Answered by more questions.

What sound do you want?
What do you want to play?
How much can you afford?
Where do you want to go to get it?
Do you want new or old and why?
Arco or just amplified pizz?

Ply makes some sense. My Cleveland bass is a bulldozer and takes incredible abuse while being consistent night after night. It's nothing like the old carved bass though and if I could only have one it would be my ancient carved bass.

The last two DBs I bought I did so because they felt right in my hands and sounded like a tone I was going for.

No substitute for playing them in person I'm afraid and as much as we can all shill for our favorite puppies in the end you'll have to try as many as you can yourself and pick what is best for you.

You know all the players, pick your budget and go while gas is cheap. I paid $4 a gallon while looking for mine over the summer, the other day with discounts for groceries I paid $.25. That would have made the 2000+ mile trip a bit more affordable.

[Joe Ergle]

The thing with electric basses is that most of the good ones are made by big companies. I understand that there is a market for hand-made EB's, but since a lot of the quality in an EB comes from the electronics, there isn't a whole heap of difference between a hand-made one and one that was made on an assembly line in a huge company when it comes to overall tone and playability.

It's nearly impossible to compare them to DB's since there is so much variability in DB's. You can buy two basses made by the same workshop at nearly the same time and they could play and sound quite differently from each other, whereas electric basses are very consistent.

But... just for fun, I'd say that Juzek is the Fender of the DB world when it comes to consistency, structural integrity, sound, and playability. Also I'd say the prices are relatively the same, as Juzek and Fender are typically mid-range in price.

[CB3000]

i agree with uncle toad but i have to admit the first thing that popped in my head was "Kay".

[velvetphil]

Yeah, I suppose it's apples and oranges to a certain extent. I think the key for me is if I'm going to spend 4 grand on a new gigging ply bass, I want there to be a certain amount of quality control. Eventually I will spend in the 5 digits for a nice carved bass - the RIGHT carved bass of course - but for now, I'm doing 99 percent pizz, and no classical/solo at all. I guess maybe I'm looking for a luthier's name, not a specific bass. If Arnold Schnitzer's shop or Upton's shop has some reputability, then I will go there and play 9 or 10 basses till I find what I need. Don't mean to offend anyone, certainly!

But thanks for the help so far! Will be interesting to see how others weigh in.

[brianrost]

If you're in NYC, start with David Gage and Kolstein before driving out to CT.

[mesmithnm]

Not that this really answers your question, but a good argument could be made that the Kay/Epiphone/American Standard (American plywood basses) are the Fender basses of the DB world simply because they were the basses of choice in popular music performance (definitely not orchestral!) before they were displaced by Leo Fender's instruments.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by CB3000

i agree with uncle toad but i have to admit the first thing that popped in my head was "Kay".

same here

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by mesmithnm

Not that this really answers your question, but a good argument could be made that the Kay/Epiphone/American Standard (American plywood basses) are the Fender basses of the DB world simply because they were the basses of choice in popular music performance (definitely not orchestral!) before they were displaced by Leo Fender's instruments.

I would agree with this, more or less, at least in terms of popularity or familiarity. The problem is that these basses are no longer made and the ones that remain have been through the wringer, so quality is an "x" factor (I never used that dumb term -- I'm assuming it means, like, in algebra, it's the unknown part of the equation).

The OP mentioned something about quality control. If that is indeed the highest priority (and that's ok if it is), then I would lean toward a new or newer bass. Preferably from one of the makers already mentioned. You can do just as well with a Kay, American Standard or Epiphone, but with the older basses you definitely have more potential for problems and you would want to make sure to have it inspected and get some playing time on it before you throw down the ca$h. Good luck!

[Jeremy Allen]

Originally Posted by velvetphil

If Arnold Schnitzer's shop...has some reputability, then I will go there and play 9 or 10 basses till I find what I need.

Ain't no "if" there.

My vote for a P-bass of the DB world would be the "Joe German/Czech" cottage industry bass of ca.120-50 years ago, the basses that ended up in high school orchestras, pro orchestras, jazz groups, and everywhere in-between; some of 'em are amazing, some totally crappy, but most are quite serviceable. I love mine and am constantly surprised at how it shines in diverse settings.

I can't say Kay, although I own one and used to have another and they can be quite amazing (for a cigar box).

[Uncletoad]

I think dollar for what you get Kay basses are a poor value. Their prices run from $2K to $5K depending on where you are, what it is and condition. They are not better as a class of instrument than the Joe German plywood basses from the same era. Those run $1K to $2K at the highest. If you are looking for resale and investment potential the Kays are a better place to put your money, if you want bang for the buck the Joe Germans are better.

Being in NYC you can get to Gage, Kolstien, Bollbach, Schnitzer, Bass Garden, and even over to Ken Smith in PA without working to hard. That's enough for you to find something that works for you're price range.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by velvetphil

Is it the mass-produced Cleveland or La Scala?

AFAIK the AES Cleveland or LaScala are NOT mass-produced but handcrafted one at a time in a small shop. If you're talking about the old American Standard Cleveland then that's another story.

[LyleRyan]

Not wanting to derail the "Fender P-Bass" thread, but I've often heard the Joe German's mentioned, especially by our Uncle.

The thing that's always made me wonder is that I almost never see these for sale in the San Francisco area. You can't escape the Chinese Basses out here, and there are always Kays for sale, but older German plywoods are seldom seen.

Maybe they're more plentiful on the East Coast, and didn't make it out here on the Conestoga Wagons.

...Lyle

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by LyleRyan

Not wanting to derail the "Fender P-Bass" thread, but I've often heard the Joe German's mentioned, especially by our Uncle.

The thing that's always made me wonder is that I almost never see these for sale in the San Francisco area. You can't escape the Chinese Basses out here, and there are always Kays for sale, but older German plywoods are seldom seen.

Maybe they're more plentiful on the East Coast, and didn't make it out here on the Conestoga Wagons.

...Lyle

Could be. They came in through NYC mostly. They are everywhere in the midwest. It's what was in the schools, every school had at least a couple of them when people still funded music programs.

[Steve Clark]

I'm the new guy on the block. Played a few basses locally but choice is thin on the ground. I drove 12 hours round trip to visit Nnick Lloyd (am I allowed to use that spelling?) and played a Cleveland and a Shen Willow. Came home with the Willow. Could have been either really but I would always have wanted to know what having a carved bass was like. Not the only reason I bought the Willow but part of the process.

You live in a great area to play many, many basses. So play them all and find one you like. I will say that after playing the Cleveland and the Willow back to back and switching strings it wasn't long before my ears didn't know which was was up so you might make several trips to play the same bass. Good luck on your quest. I enjoyed mine and am extremely happy.

Cheers

[Phil Smith]

Got to Ideal Music on 22nd street in NYC get one of their fully carved options and head over to Gage's or Kolstein's for a setup.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

..............My vote for a P-bass of the DB world would be the "Joe German/Czech" cottage industry bass of ca.120-50 years ago, the basses that ended up in high school orchestras, pro orchestras, jazz groups, and everywhere in-between; some of 'em are amazing, some totally crappy, but most are quite serviceable. I love mine and am constantly surprised at how it shines in diverse settings.......................

I totally agree. My old German (Czech?) ply beats the pants off anything I've tried, including carved, under $3K. I prefer it to the Upton Hybrid that I owned for over a year and I haven't played a Kay that I would trade for it. The $1200 cost was a bonus.

Although I love my nice carved bass, it just isn't as practical for some of the gigs I do so it stays home.

[Standalone]

I'd say Kay,

and in my limited experience, Kay : Precision Bass :: Juzek : Jazz Bass

This is more thinking about the reputation and sound of the basses than the construction or history. My Kay has a thin neck, like a Jazz, but its tone is big and fat with a midrange punch. When I've played my Kay in a shop, people come running over remarking how loud it is. My old Kay also has high action, which I correlate with the wider chunky necks of my several P and PJ basses.

My Juzek is also mass produced, commonplace. It hasn't the huge tone my Kay has. The upper midrange is therefore more noticeable in the tone. Which I guess I could equate with the grindiness of my jazz. I also gig my Jazz and my Juzek, and not my P's and my Kay.

I do think that most people might find that "Kay" is the first thing that comes to mind.

Note that Uncletoad does make price and value comparisons to the Kay... so it is, in that sense, a baseline for comparison.

And Lyle--I think the "joe german" basses that Uncletoad is talking about are the various individual shop made basses like my Juzek-- I'm told that different individual makers would make certain parts and the basses would be assembled from them. My understanding is that they are out there under any number of brand names. He's right about price. My Juzek cost me under $2k, while a Kay in similar condition would command a little higher price.

Most TBDB'ers know more about this than I do, however. I'm sure some of this will be corrected!

[velvetphil]

Well this is all really interesting stuff, guys, thanks!

[CB3000]

i'd like to plug new standard basses. i had a hybrid la scala (actually the very one in that banner ad on the left) and it was amazing-loud and articulate. if you can check them out you won't be sorry.