Will a carved-top (hybrid) bass "open up?"

[BRIDGE]

I read a bunch of threads on the "opening up" issue but none of them talked specifically about hybrids. I ordered the Upton Hybrid some time ago and have been wondering if it is going to break in over time since it has a carved top. My understanding from those other threads is that many people find that fully-ply basses do not "open up" the way fully-carved basses do. But what about hybrids? I'd guess that they're somewhere in between - the carved top undergoes changes in the wood, just like the carved top on a fully carved, but perhaps the back and sides just stay more or less the same, even after a long time.

Am I right? If not, what's your take on it? Thanks in advance as always.

[B.C.]

Originally Posted by BRIDGE

I read a bunch of threads on the "opening up" issue but none of them talked specifically about hybrids. I ordered the Upton Hybrid some time ago and have been wondering if it is going to break in over time since it has a carved top. My understanding from those other threads is that many people find that fully-ply basses do not "open up" the way fully-carved basses do. But what about hybrids? I'd guess that they're somewhere in between - the carved top undergoes changes in the wood, just like the carved top on a fully carved, but perhaps the back and sides just stay more or less the same, even after a long time.

Am I right? If not, what's your take on it? Thanks in advance as always.

Hm, in owning a carved bass, I have had some issues in winter with joints coming loose etc. All woods are going to change depending on season. With a carved top, I would assume changes. Well,let me rephrase that, every bass is going to need adjusting every seasonal change, so every bass is going to change.

If course correct me if I am wrong.

[BRIDGE]

That is good information, actually, but when I was saying "opening up" I was referring to the idea that the bass sounds better with age, as it is played more and more over time. Not literally opening up and having pieces of it shift or loosen or anything like that.

[hensonbass]

I tour with a Shen hybrid bass I bought brand new and I noticed a big change in the sound after a year of playing. It's a good thing 'cause I was getting pretty frustrated with the sound and all of a sudden it kind of 'bloomed'.

Have patience....

[hensonbass]

BTW: I used to study with Larry Hurst back in the 90's at IU- do you know him?

[B.C.]

Originally Posted by BRIDGE

That is good information, actually, but when I was saying "opening up" I was referring to the idea that the bass sounds better with age, as it is played more and more over time. Not literally opening up and having pieces of it shift or loosen or anything like that.

Ah, I see what you mean. In that case, I wouldn't know, only have had my carved bass for two years.

[Alan Vorse]

I play a Kohr hybrid with a carved top and my teacher said if I do the bowing long tones routine that it will open up. I have had it for about 14 months and am starting to hear a difference.

[drurb]

Yes. You can expect a hybrid to "open up" in a manner similar to that expected for a carved bass. After all, as I see it, a hybrid is not in the "middle" of plys and carved basses. Rather, it is closer to a carved bass as the majority of the increase in the complexity of tone that one sees between a ply and a carved bass stems from the presence of the carved top. Many hybrids also have maple (non-ply) ribs. For them, it's only the back that is ply.

[Marc Piane]

I've heard several luthiers say that a new bass isn't going to really settle in until it pops a few seams.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by fingers

I've heard several luthiers say that a new bass isn't going to really settle in until it pops a few seams.

That makes sense to me. As the wood in the top or ribs move without equal movement in the plywood back, tension would be introduced. The bass might be less responsive or the resonant frequency of the bass might go up, or down. I say 'up' because don't we associate opening up with with an increase in low end response?
Popping seams would relieve that tension.
If this is true, Hybrid basses (being less likely to pop seams and crack) would take longer to open up.
Don't you just love theoretical discussions?

[lowEndRick]

From the OP: "But what about hybrids? I'd guess that they're somewhere in between - the carved top undergoes changes in the wood, just like the carved top on a fully carved, but perhaps the back and sides just stay more or less the same, even after a long time."


It is my understanding that the Upton Hawkes Hybrid has solid top and sides. Only the back is ply.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Even fully laminated basses will improve with age. I've played a few old Kays that sounded nicer than a newish one. There has been a lot of discussion already as to why. Maybe the glue in the laminates fully cures, or loosens up. I don't really know. Yes, any bass will improve with age, but I doubt a ply or hybrid will as quickly as a fully carved bass. My Upton hybrid has improved in the year I have had it, but it still sounds like a new bass.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by clink

That makes sense to me. As the wood in the top or ribs move without equal movement in the plywood back, tension would be introduced. The bass might be less responsive or the resonant frequency of the bass might go up, or down. I say 'up' because don't we associate opening up with with an increase in low end response?
Popping seams would relieve that tension.
If this is true, Hybrid basses (being less likely to pop seams and crack) would take longer to open up.
Don't you just love theoretical discussions?

If the resonant frequency went up, that would do the opposite of enhancing the low-end response. Maybe that's what you were saying. In any case, I have heard this theory before and just don't buy it. If it were true, we'd want our basses to crack.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by lowEndRick

From the OP: "But what about hybrids? I'd guess that they're somewhere in between - the carved top undergoes changes in the wood, just like the carved top on a fully carved, but perhaps the back and sides just stay more or less the same, even after a long time."


It is my understanding that the Upton Hawkes Hybrid has solid top and sides. Only the back is ply.

I'm not sure this is true of the new USA-made hybrids and may not have been true of the most recent European ones.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by fingers

I've heard several luthiers say that a new bass isn't going to really settle in until it pops a few seams.

OK, I have a fully carved bass that is opening up beautifully in 2.5 years. Like DRURB, I think a hybrid will behave more similarly to a carved bass than a laminate. Of course there are reports even of laminates opening up.

But as to the issue of seams popping, I would tend to disagree with the notion that the seams must pop open at some time in the maturing process. Much of that has to do with how mature the wood was before it was carved and much has to do with how much stress is built into the instrument;- that is parts glued together that want to be in different places at the out set. If the ribs are free of stresses and the wood is well aged, I can't see any reason for seams to open. I'm just waiting for this to happen to my bass, but It will not surprise me if it doesn't. I've subjected it to climatic abuse of all kinds including dew fall, freezing temperatures, 90+ degree F indoor temperatures, etc. The only thing I watch is the humidity, and I am not scrupulous about that. It is 2.5 years off the carving bench, but I suspect the 80+ year old shop had the wood pile standing a lot longer.

Wood ages from the day it is cut, not the day it is carved. Chemical changes in the wood happen and continue to happen regardless of when it becomes a bass or other object. There are at least two things that plausibly happen as an instrument matures. One is that the wood is undergoing specific and predictable chemical changes that begin as soon as it is cut and continue until the unstable components of the wood degrade and eventually reach an equilibrium point. The second thing is that difficult to prove but often reported improvement that has to do with playing or vibration.

I am guessing that these two phenomena also interact and aren't independent. In other words, vibrating the instrument speeds up the chemical processes just like shaking a reaction in solution. Of course it is difficult to separate or study these phenomena or quantify them or determine whether or not similar changes occur in laminated wooden instruments. In the case of the hybrid instrument or even the carved instrument, the spruce top, which is the wood from a conifer, is less stable and more reactive over time than the hardwood ribs and back or the plywood ribs and back. Softwood from conifers has more acid in it and that makes it less stable and it degrades over time more rapidly than most hardwoods. So at least that phenomenon is going to be more pronounced in the top than in the ribs and back. During the early life of the instrument the chemical activity in the top, and perhaps the vibration in the top that speeds up that activity, are plausibly responsible for large changes compared to any changes that take place in the ribs and hybrid and carved basses should display similar changes.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by drurb

If the resonant frequency went up, that would do the opposite of enhancing the low-end response. Maybe that's what you were saying. In any case, I have heard this theory before and just don't buy it. If it were true, we'd want our basses to crack.

I don't buy it either! Which "resonant frequency" is being referred to? Helmholtz will not move unless the interior dimensions change a good bit or the f-holes are changed in size. I don't think basses shrink that much unless you wash them in hot water and put them in the dryer.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I don't buy it either! Which "resonant frequency" is being referred to? Helmholtz will not move unless the interior dimensions change a good bit or the f-holes are changed in size. I don't think basses shrink that much unless you wash them in hot water and put them in the dryer.

I'm not sure I buy it either; just doing some 'mental' exploring.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

But as to the issue of seams popping, I would tend to disagree with the notion that the seams must pop open at some time in the maturing process. Much of that has to do with how mature the wood was before it was carved and much has to do with how much stress is built into the instrument;- that is parts glued together that want to be in different places at the out set.

I'm just going on the word of luthiers. I've even heard that cracks have something to do with the maturation process. Is there a doctor in the house that might chime in on this issue?

You will have a seam pop. It is just a matter of time. Mature wood certainly has something to do with it but I know guys that have 100+ year old basses that have seams pop. It happens all the time and it takes an overnight stay at the bass doctor and a nominal fee (as bass repairs go) to fix. No big deal.

[JKincaid]

Originally Posted by hensonbass

BTW: I used to study with Larry Hurst back in the 90's at IU- do you know him?

Word on the street is that you were the hot shot principal of the freshman orchestra that was always being overshadowed by the masterful skilz of the 3rd chair player.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by fingers

I'm just going on the word of luthiers. I've even heard that cracks have something to do with the maturation process. Is there a doctor in the house that might chime in on this issue?

You will have a seam pop. It is just a matter of time. Mature wood certainly has something to do with it but I know guys that have 100+ year old basses that have seams pop. It happens all the time and it takes an overnight stay at the bass doctor and a nominal fee (as bass repairs go) to fix. No big deal.

I'll keep you posted on the seam thing. I know it's no big deal. I've glued open seams and repaired cracks on guitars and it is a pretty easy repair to fix an open seam. As long as the rib will line up with minimal force applied. If the rib wants to be somewhere other than the edge of the plate, it is going to open again I think. Ideally the glue should just hold it together and not have the added stress of holding the wood in place.