Will I stick with it!?

[Reaper978]

Hello everyone,

I recently got turned onto bowed double-bass by listening to the Bach cello suites played on double bass. The tone on this instrument is simply gorgeous, and its far more portable than my piano. I love the super-low notes as well.

I am a pianist at heart, but I also play guitar and I'd like to expand my skills with a string instrument.

As far as my raw musicianship goes, you can hear me play the piano here:

http://www.myspace.com/classicalexperimentation

I think I have a lot of talent, and I latch onto how to play instruments quite quickly. I just don't know if I'll stick with it. I've stuck with the piano for two years (and look how far I've gotten) but I don't know if the double bass would be an instrument I'd stick with for years as well. I know diligent training and focus for many years is required to become excellent at an instrument.

I'd like to expand what I know with a string instrument, though. I love the string family and since I love the sound of the double bass and it is a fairly unique choice I thought I'd give it a shot.

I'll have to see if someone in the area will let me borrow there's for awhile and see if I like it.

Also, can someone fill me in on some basic things with double basses, such as the standard size (3/4?) and a good price for a beginner double bass?

Thanks

-Colin

[JimGullen]

Hi Colin!

There is very little about double basses that is standard. Most would agree that a 3/4 bass (whatever that really means) is the most common size. A good price for a starter bass is more difficult to answer.

The best route, in my opinion, is to find a teacher...now. Let them know about your background, your aspirations with learning the bass. Ask them for help in finding an instrument. Unless you can find someone who will loan you a bass for a significant period of time, this is going to be a good sized financial investment on your part.

Starting with a teacher from the onset will also keep you from forming initial bad habits right from the start. There is much potential for physical harm to yourself if your mechanics are not sound. Nothing will ensure that you WON'T stick with it than pain every time you try to play.

Good luck and best regards!

Jim

[Steve Swan]

If it's the Edgar Meyer recordings of the cello suites, he's playing a very old 5/8 bass. If your primary interest is solo melodic playing, you would do well to look around for a lighter, more responsive Pre-WW II 5/8 bass. Professional quality instruments can often be had for well under $10,000.00. I sold a very responsive 1880's German 5/8 for $6,000.00 two years ago. If you're anywhere near Volker Nahrmann's shop, he had at least 3 really nice looking 5/8 basses the last time I looked on his website.

[Reaper978]

If your primary interest is solo melodic playing...

Indeed, though I doubt I'll find a 5/8 within my price range given the prices your quoting me. I have found some 3/4 and full size basses on ebay for 300-500 dollars, would quality be a serious concern with a price like that?

I will try to find a teacher to aid me in my quest, thank you for your comments! Being a longtime veteran of wrist pain on the piano, I know exactly what you're talking about.

EDIT: Sigh, I guess I better wait until I have a good 1000 dollars to buy a quality instrument.

-Colin

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Reaper978

I have found some 3/4 and full size basses on ebay for 300-500 dollars, would quality be a serious concern with a price like that?

IMO, and in the opinion of most here, quality would be a serious issue and you should steer clear of those.

You will likely find the newbie links very helpful.

You may also want to investigate rental options.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by drurb

IMO, and in the opinion of most here, quality would be a serious issue and you should steer clear of those.

You will likely find the newbie links very helpful.

You may also want to investigate rental options.

I am with Drurb here. If you are inspired by classical music you need a carved bass. Carved basses sound better pizz, too, but amplified you can live with a plywood for pizz (well, I can't). If you want a cheap starter option as always I reccomend these (over a plywood bass): http://www.ergoinstruments.com

I just got a new 7 string and it is even more responsive than the one I had before, it is great for arco. Still, a carved Chinese bass is a better option.

Also, I wouldn't say the double bass is "easy" to learn, but if you get a decent teacher with a proven classical method like Simandl it is very clear. As long as you practice the right things each day it will come along just fine.

[Reaper978]

After doing some research, I have come up with this as a possible candidate for a beginning bass:

http://www.music123.com/Samuel-Shen-...-i243184.music

I may just rent one and see if I can practice daily without any problems.

Yes, I very much want to study bass. I don't know if my parents will go for this though . I will have to convince them to get me bass lessons over the summer at the local community college. There is a double bass available there. I kinda want to do flamenco guitar as well...

My personality is all over the place, but I love music and I always will.

I was talking with my mentor about this and he said quite a few interesting things. He said that the Double Bass is a very soothing instrument because of the low frequencies it produces. I'm inclined to agree, I tried one out just yesterday and found everything about it, especially the low strings, to calm my mind. You don't even have to be that great at it, you can just use it as a meditative instrument where you bow the open strings and feel the sound. It's also a very forgiving instrument; it doesn't squeak or squeal horribly if you bow a little wrong. Of course, because of my musical mind, I could tell when I was bowing wrong or not pushing hard enough with the left hand, but the sounds sort of fit together regardless! It just sings. I'd like to take it around to coffee shops and use its beautiful aura to give a very warm hue to the place. Heck, I wouldn't have to be a virtuoso or anything. Perhaps some of you guys should try this? I'm sure your good enough to get enough sounds out of the instrument to fill an hour or two of time.

The thing can just make people cry.

The instruments I play really run the gambit. The piano is an extremely intense instrument (read: Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Liszt), the guitar can soothe but it also exhilarates with its flamenco roots, and the double bass is this calming, meditative wave of sound that can fill up a hall.

The double bass may be the missing link I'm looking for to fill the hole in my soul. It's warmth is something I have never encountered before. Not the violin, not the viola, not even the cello can match its immense breadth.

Some things about me:

I am a massive perfectionist. Perfectionism and piano DON'T mix (go here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=9XTpwihpddI ). I have gone through massive bouts of depression over the piano and I really don't want to go through that again with another instrument. Classical piano is the most difficult and intense thing I have ever attempted. For some reason, I don't think that will happen with the double bass. The way I play is more of an improvisatory thing, and I think that lends itself to this instrument quite well. More emphasis is placed on how individual notes are shaped rather than intensely complicated counterpoint, chord inversions, key changes, etc. There's all these colors you can coax out of the instrument with vibrato, portamento slides, and crescendos and decrescendos within single notes and chords. Heck, you could play a simple scale and as long as you use these techniques you could probably make someone cry with it. Not to say you can't get complicated with it, using things like implied counterpoint, but it's like the intensity knob got turned down with this instrument.

Incredibly beautiful sound.

-Colin

[Jason Sypher]

Ok Colin, take this with a huge grain of salt ok? I mean you no disrespect whatsoever and your posts reveal you to be a very intelligent and articulate thinker. But I must say that I find your interests and reasoning to be quite romantic regarding the double bass! Now, romance is good, very good in fact when it comes to tackling something as difficult as the bass and you will need that to keep you going when things get rough. Low, soothing, deep, soulful...yes, yes, all true. Also, huge, cumbersome, difficult, hard to intonate, incredibly difficult to bow well etc etc. If you don't think it squeaks and squeals when you bow incorrectly then you haven't really been bowing. A loose, unorganized, happy-go-lucky approach to the doublebass will get you nowhere. Do I sound like Simon? It is an incredibly physical and intensely demanding, even to play just so so. Coffee shops and low lighting don't help a bit in getting a full sound and solid rhythmic approach that underpins harmony, supports the tune and frees up soloists and steers a composition. I'm sorry to sound like a wet blanket but when I read your posts, your last post in particular, I think you don't have any idea what your talking about or getting yourself into. I have to say that in my experience people who ask other people "will I stick with it" won't. The best players I've met, and even some just so-so players attacked this instument with every fiber in their being, in short, they HAD to play the bass, it wasn't even a choice! I DO wish you well with the instrument if that is what you decide to pursue. It is a wonderful journey to undertake, anyone here will tell you that but it is also a huge committment that will take much of your time and energy to learn to play. Again, I really don't mean to be harsh, truly, but sometimes a little straight talk can help someone find their way! Good luck in all endeavors!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Ok Colin, take this with a huge grain of salt ok? I mean you no disrespect whatsoever and your posts reveal you to be a very intelligent and articulate thinker. But I must say that I find your interests and reasoning to be quite romantic regarding the double bass! Now, romance is good, very good in fact when it comes to tackling something as difficult as the bass and you will need that to keep you going when things get rough. Low, soothing, deep, soulful...yes, yes, all true. Also, huge, cumbersome, difficult, hard to intonate, incredibly difficult to bow well etc etc. If you don't think it squeaks and squeals when you bow incorrectly then you haven't really been bowing. A loose, unorganized, happy-go-lucky approach to the doublebass will get you nowhere. Do I sound like Simon? It is an incredibly physical and intensely demanding, even to play just so so. Coffee shops and low lighting don't help a bit in getting a full sound and solid rhythmic approach that underpins harmony, supports the tune and frees up soloists and steers a composition. I'm sorry to sound like a wet blanket but when I read your posts, your last post in particular, I think you don't have any idea what your talking about or getting yourself into. I have to say that in my experience people who ask other people "will I stick with it" won't. The best players I've met, and even some just so-so players attacked this instument with every fiber in their being, in short, they HAD to play the bass, it wasn't even a choice! I DO wish you well with the instrument if that is what you decide to pursue. It is a wonderful journey to undertake, anyone here will tell you that but it is also a huge committment that will take much of your time and energy to learn to play. Again, I really don't mean to be harsh, truly, but sometimes a little straight talk can help someone find their way! Good luck in all endeavors!

Beautiful, dead-on post. All I can say is: +1!!!

[Dbassmon]

Well said Jason.

In addition to what Jason expressed, I would like to add that DB is one of the most physically demanding instruments. I takes tremendous physicallity to make even a bad sounding note. For several months, a sound similar to cats in heat is likely to eminate from your room when you attempt to bow. Man, this is a tough instrument. If that wasn't bad enough, playing in tune is incredibley difficult so all the time your hands are hurting, so are your ears.

Point is, you need to explore the reality of what this instrument is. I have been playing electric bass for 30 years, fretless for 20 of those years, I studied classical guitar as a kid and this is toughest instrument I have ever attempted to learn. If you have no experience as a string player, this task is even tougher.

I am not trying to discourage you I just want you to know what I have observed from my vantage point. I am into month 3 of my DB journey. I found the best teacher in my area, I started with Samadl Book 1 and away we go. I wanted to get right into Jazz but I need to know technique first. I wake at 6:00 am to allow at least an hour and a half practice everyday before work.

I think that kind of dedication is required to play any instrument and that's not a commitment one should take lightly. That being said, if you are game, go for it!

[dchan]

It takes incredible dedication in order to correctly use a bow.

I currently use a French bow, and before this year, my bow hold was always awkward. When I first learned to hold a bow, I would instinctively grab hold of it like I would a dowel of the same size. It took a month or two of slowly bowing long notes on every string in order to get a good feel with the bow and its behavior when crossing strings.

I had a teacher for those two months, but for 5 years after, I didn't. I was able to get by using my musicianship and ears, but I could have been a lot better with a teacher.

My next teacher taught me to hold the bow very delicately. This was somewhat frustrating, as I was using a rather tight bow hold at the time, and now I had to balance between holding the stick very lightly and holding the stick securely enough so that I wouldn't drop it.

Now I use the Italian bow hold, which is thumb inside the frog. This has allowed me to relax my fingers since it is a more secure grip than the French bow hold. It also helps that I have finally gotten a far superior bow than any bow that I have ever used.

But in that whole time spent figuring out a comfortable bow hold, I have limited my forays into solo pieces and so forth. I've also limited my fingering ability, and I still have not achieved the technique that many of those pieces require.

Keep all that in mind in your studies. It takes a lot a determination and musicianship to play the Bach Cello Suites and create a beautiful sound.

[Reaper978]

The only thing I can point to as proof of my dedication would be my myspace music page that I posted in the beginning of this thread. Anything else I can say is pretty meaningless.

For the most part I was getting agreeable sounds out of the instrument. No, my ear is not as refined to the intricacies of the instrument as some other people's, but I was able to do slides, trills, and short scales decently. I am not lying. I think that's pretty good having never played the instrument before.

I'll try to get a recording up eventually.

-Colin

[Jason Sypher]

I sense a little bit of defensiveness in your post and I guess I don't really blame you if that's the case. You may very well have a natural inclination and ability for the instrument and that's great. I think I had that as well when I first picked it up. I thought, "hey, I think I can probably really play this thing" (in my case I had studied the cello for a few years in orchestra). Well I was right, and I was wrong. I could play it pretty good but I realized right away that I wanted to be much better than just pretty good. I have now played it over 15 years and I still feel after all that work that I just play it "pretty good" for the most part and "good" every once in awhile. It's a matter of personal perspective and honest criticism. When you mentioned being inspired by cello suites played on the bass (that must be Edgar Meyer) you have to realize that very, very few players can get a bass to sound that way. That is truly great bass playing and that is the kind of performance, however out of my league, that I hold up to measure myself against. I think it's great that you found this inspiration in the sound of the doublebass. Many people, to this day, do not hear the instrument as a viable solo voice. That says a lot about your ears, musicality and character. Really cool. My comments were more meant to inspire you to dig deeper, slow down a bit and consider that it all might be a bigger committment than you are imagining from the onset. Wet blanket, perhaps. I'm just trying to help you get beyond where you are to a place where you might really begin to take the first true productive steps towards reaching that goal of making a doublebass sing in your own voice. You could say I'm being too serious, too soon and you'd probably be right. It's difficult to keep down hard-earned lessons and advice from wanting to see the light of day and help someone out even towards one with all that newbie energy or perhaps even, because of it. Go rent that Shen and get yourself a teacher!

[damonsmith]

I'd say a lot of what you can achieve is actually based on your own perception.
Playing Bach is not so easy, but if it was a main goal enough people have proved it possible.

I began playing the instrument with a really well researched idea of what it was able to do, I feel like I have been able to achieve a bit more than players with more talent and discipline but whose concept of the instrument ends at Paul Chambers, for example.
I am been extremely lucky with my teachers and I have been able to avoid a 9-5 since I picked up the instrument, so I have not been without advantage.
Still, when I look at what I have been able to with the bass in the last 12 years I am pretty amazed. I have a long way to go and hope to work on it until I die, but I just want to offer my own experience to give more encouragement than some of the other posts.

While I am not a master of Bach on bass I can play enough of the suites at pitch to say that if it was a strong goal in itself it is certainly humanly possible. I use Bach to become a better musician and a little goes a long way for that.
If you want to do it, you can.

* Start with the idea that the bass is a bowed instrument - 'cellist and violinist do not complain that bowing is "too hard" - they play bowed instruments.

* Study up on several of the methods, you will need a simple foundational method more than likely Simandl. You want to play Bach so being aware of both Petrrachi and Rabbath is going to really help, esp. if you want to play it at pitch.

* Get as many recordings of solo bass as you can, jazz, classical improv, new music, etc.
Just know the instrument can make a certain sound is a big step.

* Try to find managable short term goals everytime you practice. If you can do something you could not do before you are a better musicain than when you picked up the bass that day.

* Having the implict goal and idea is already a good start.

I have had some struggles here and there, and consider my talent to be average but through starting with a strong idea, good teachers, efficient practice, a ton of dumb luck in terms of playing with great musicians/artists and good time management I have been able to do more than I ever thought I could.

[drurb]

Notice that a common thread to those that have been successful is the relationship with a good teacher. The value of one cannot be overstated.