EUB good for Arco?

[bdengler]

OK...I'll admit it. Two years ago I asked the same question: Does anyone have a recommendation for an EUB that's good for arco playing. I thought since 2005, designs may have improved and now I desparately need to address my amplification situation in church, where I arco about 90% of the pieces (I've come to the conclusion that putting a mike on my bass through our PA system...as good as that PA system is, won't work). Thanks for your recommendations.


Thanks, Brian

[Mingus]

How about an actual DB pickup?

[Bob Gollihur]

A young woman came in about two weeks ago to audition an Eminence; she played my RN4, strung with Corelli 370F. I am not Joe Arco, but she absolutely blew my socks off. She bought one, had to fly to India the following week and didn't want to fly her URB again.

When I put my Eminence away later, I think I heard a "sigh" from it... perhaps it would like a different owner.

But that's my vote, Eminence.

usual disclaimer: I play one and sell 'em, too

But I have to ask-- why does mic'ing your bass not work? And also... since IMHO the best that an EUB can hope to sound is like an URB with a pickup on it, have you tried any of the better pickups, perhaps with a mic? Email privately if you like, I'll be glad to try to help.

[damonsmith]

Eminence is nice, but ultimately it is plywood. The Ergo is great for arco when set up well. The Solid block of wood gives a woody sound and gives you a response similar to carved bass.

[bdengler]

Originally Posted by Bob Gollihur

A young woman came in about two weeks ago to audition an Eminence; she played my RN4, strung with Corelli 370F. I am not Joe Arco, but she absolutely blew my socks off. She bought one, had to fly to India the following week and didn't want to fly her URB again.

When I put my Eminence away later, I think I heard a "sigh" from it... perhaps it would like a different owner.

But that's my vote, Eminence.

usual disclaimer: I play one and sell 'em, too

But I have to ask-- why does mic'ing your bass not work? And also... since IMHO the best that an EUB can hope to sound is like an URB with a pickup on it, have you tried any of the better pickups, perhaps with a mic? Email privately if you like, I'll be glad to try to help.

Bob, thanks for the invite in sending you a private e-mail. As the saying goes, "You've got mail!" Our "sound board" folks (they're members of our choir who run our soundboard, not sound engineers) say that I don't carry enough "signal" to the board with my mike(a Shure M57 --and -- BTW, the H-Clamp I got from you is great), that I sound "unclear," "too buried", etc.

I play in a small ensemble with 60 singers. The Church seats 1,400, and has a bank of 6 speaker cabinets hanging from the ceiling, each which contain 2-12's and an assortment of other tweaters, etc. The following instruments are on mikes: 2 to 3 violins, 1 cello, 2 horns, 2 flutes, 1 clarinet (sometimes oboe), timpani and misc. percussion (chimes, bongos --no drum set), a 9-foot Baldwin. Then we have two guitars (Taylors) that have pizo pickups, run into Fender accoustic amps and then into the board. The piano and guitars are overpowering. It appears the bass gets lost in the din. My same set up (Shure M57) with a much smaller combo (typically, a piano, a guitar and me) sound fine and blend well over the system. So it appears I need a combination that would help me "cut through" the noise with some definition with the larger group.

Regards, Brian

[downneck]

i'm quite fond of my merchant vertical...quite bowable. mine's an *ancient* model (one of the first 100 or so made) so it's got a different pickup system than what is on the newer models. that being the case i couldn't really say how the new ones sound bowed, but i know this one sounds pretty natural (for an electrified stick) and feels almost as good as my URB

if you're ever near nyc feel free to stop by and try mine, or better yet stop by bill's shop and try a new one

[bongomania]

While I'm a rank amateur when it comes to playing the DB, I have to say I was surprised how easily I got a good arco tone from my BSX Allegro Acoustic. I have taken violin lessons in the past, so I knew just enough to get a consistent sound from the bow, but I also know how dadburned hard it is to get a good sound. I was able to draw out some very passable tones with only minor EQ tweaking and no ear shredding. Though I'm not qualified to speak as a DB player, I've been listening to jazz bass for decades, and I would not have been disappointed to hear these soloed arco tones on record in a jazz context.

[Basso Musico]

The Acoustic line from AlterEGO sounds fantastic, plays great. Gary Karr has one that he uses daily (or so I'm told). There are a bunch of arco samples on the AlterEGO site (http://www.alter-ego.it) and Gary has a quote in the Feedback section.
And in keeping with Bob G's disclaimer - which I loved - Yes, yes, I endorse these instruments.

Good luck,
Rick McLaughlin

[wiro]

Have a look at Clevinger. They got the most natural sound with EUB as far as I know. Which is especially important when bowing.

http://www.clevinger.com

[Dave Whitla]

I find my Bassix to be pretty good with a bow. I do Strauss ball gigs on it regularly with no hassle. Bassix is made in the UK though, so it might not suit you.

From the sound of it though, it seems to me like you could just use a pickup or a Schertler Full Circle, maybe with a preamp and a DI...? There's probably someone out there who could comment on whether that's actually a good suggestion or not.

[Mike Arnopol]

I've played all of the basses that have been mentioned and have owned the Alter Ego. The ONLY eub that I've played that approximates the sound and feel of a double bass arco or pizz is the Volante. I was playing at the top jazz club in Paris and the designer brought one in. I have never played a bass that I wasn't familiar with on a gig. This bass felt so good that I played both sets. The artist I play with ( Patricia Barber) immediately volunteered to pay half. The solid body basses are essentially upright bass guitars. (in terms of feel, sound, and response) Other basses like the Merchant and Alter Ego try to somewhat emulate a double bass top be using two pseudo bass bars. Some like the Eminence have small acoustic chambers. The only one that uses a bass bar and a sound post is the Volante. Something that no one has mentioned here is the envelope of sound and response. If you want to emulate the response and sound of a double bass, you need to have the top mimic the response of an actual bass top. You can't do this with a slab of wood one inch thick. I'm not saying that I don't like some of the eub's. I think that the NS and Clevingers do some very cool things. What they don't do is sound and feel anything like a double bass---pizz or arco.

[PocketGroove82]

Stay away from the Silent Bass. That P.O.S. sounds like a chainsaw.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I've played all of the basses that have been mentioned and have owned the Alter Ego. The ONLY eub that I've played that approximates the sound and feel of a double bass arco or pizz is the Volante. I was playing at the top jazz club in Paris and the designer brought one in. I have never played a bass that I wasn't familiar with on a gig. This bass felt so good that I played both sets. The artist I play with ( Patricia Barber) immediately volunteered to pay half. The solid body basses are essentially upright bass guitars. (in terms of feel, sound, and response) Other basses like the Merchant and Alter Ego try to somewhat emulate a double bass top be using two pseudo bass bars. Some like the Eminence have small acoustic chambers. The only one that uses a bass bar and a sound post is the Volante. Something that no one has mentioned here is the envelope of sound and response. If you want to emulate the response and sound of a double bass, you need to have the top mimic the response of an actual bass top. You can't do this with a slab of wood one inch thick. I'm not saying that I don't like some of the eub's. I think that the NS and Clevingers do some very cool things. What they don't do is sound and feel anything like a double bass---pizz or arco.

What I have found with the Ergo is that a solid block of wood makes a big difference towards a full, woody sound, much more than acoustic chambers do.
Acoustic chambers create acoustic sound, amplifying a block of wood creates a woody sound.
Obviously, technique and choice of amp plays a huge role. My Ergo is set up with action like a double bass and the way I play double bass has to do with getting the top to resonate, so applying that to my Ergo gets great results.
My Ergo through my GK is a different story than through lesser amps, I tried through a AI and it was beautiful.
All the basses mentioned that I have played are good quality instruments, however.

[BigBeatNut]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

The only one that uses a bass bar and a sound post is the Volante.

There's at least one more, and that's the Allegro BSX.

[AlunJWDavies]

I use a Yamaha AG-Stomp which is a mic simulator. These are
discontinued but Zoom makes one now(A!?). I have a BSX T-Bass
which is great but any piezo is going to sound nasal. That's just the way
piezos sound. The mic modeller(also pre-amp and fx unit) gives the sound
a "bloom" that you would get from a bass in a room. It creates "air"
around the sound. I also use verb in varying degrees. Seriously,
people freak out at my bowed sound. It doesn't sound exactly like
a double bass bowed but does make people smile instead of cringeing
which is usually the case from a piezo being bowed.

Alun

[mozarwasagenius]

Originally Posted by bongomania

While I'm a rank amateur when it comes to playing the DB, I have to say I was surprised how easily I got a good arco tone from my BSX Allegro Acoustic. I have taken violin lessons in the past, so I knew just enough to get a consistent sound from the bow, but I also know how dadburned hard it is to get a good sound. I was able to draw out some very passable tones with only minor EQ tweaking and no ear shredding. Though I'm not qualified to speak as a DB player, I've been listening to jazz bass for decades, and I would not have been disappointed to hear these soloed arco tones on record in a jazz context.

I have to agree with Bongo. My teacher who plays with a local symphony was impressed with the tone of my BSX Allegro Acoustic using a cheap Glasser bow and a PJB briefcase. He thought the pizz tone was a little too "electric" but he commented several times on the bowing tone (when plugged in of course).

[ToneRanger]

Originally Posted by bdengler

BOur "sound board" folks (they're members of our choir who run our soundboard, not sound engineers) say that I don't carry enough "signal" to the board with my mike(a Shure M57 --and -- BTW, the H-Clamp I got from you is great), that I sound "unclear," "too buried", etc.
I play in a small ensemble with 60 singers. The Church seats 1,400, and has a bank of 6 speaker cabinets hanging from the ceiling, each which contain 2-12's and an assortment of other tweaters, etc. The following instruments are on mikes: 2 to 3 violins, 1 cello, 2 horns, 2 flutes, 1 clarinet (sometimes oboe), timpani and misc. percussion (chimes, bongos --no drum set), a 9-foot Baldwin. Then we have two guitars (Taylors) that have pizo pickups, run into Fender accoustic amps and then into the board. The piano and guitars are overpowering. It appears the bass gets lost in the din. My same set up (Shure M57) with a much smaller combo (typically, a piano, a guitar and me) sound fine and blend well over the system. So it appears I need a combination that would help me "cut through" the noise with some definition with the larger group.

If fiddles and cello are working OK with mics, then you should be able to get a double bass to cut it. I'd suggest trying a more sensitive mic. The SM57 is a good all-rounder, but more often used on drums or guitar amps than stringed instruments. Since you already have the H-Clamp, positioning is sorted. I'd suggest a decent condenser mic with flat response and tight directional pattern. There are lots of options, with the better ones made by Neumann, AKG & Sennheiser, but I've recently had great results for less $$ with the Rode NT5 and M3 - www.rodemic.com

[ToneRanger]

Originally Posted by bdengler

Our "sound board" folks (they're members of our choir who run our soundboard, not sound engineers) say that I don't carry enough "signal" to the board with my mike(a Shure M57 --and -- BTW, the H-Clamp I got from you is great), that I sound "unclear," "too buried", etc.

If you don't have skilled sound operators, I'd also be getting a second opinion on the PA setup, especially the way the bass EQ & gain is set, before shelling out for a new instrument. That's a really complex PA job you're describing (much trickier than the 10-piece ensemble I mix for at church). It would be cheaper to hire in an experienced sound person to do some training and system setup than to buy a new bass just because they can't make your existing one sound good.

Also, there's probably not much you can do to turn down a 9-foot grand piano, but I'd be doing some negotiating with the guitarists - if the fiddle players can get by without on-stage amps, why can't they?

[bdengler]

Originally Posted by ToneRanger

If you don't have skilled sound operators, I'd also be getting a second opinion on the PA setup, especially the way the bass EQ & gain is set, before shelling out for a new instrument.
Also, there's probably not much you can do to turn down a 9-foot grand piano, but I'd be doing some negotiating with the guitarists - if the fiddle players can get by without on-stage amps, why can't they?

ToneRanger, thanks for the comments. After trying other mikes, it turns out our sound folks were the happiest with the Fishman B-100. The instrumentation as amplified was so heavy, the board folks said that the Fishman produced enough signal and clarity to cut through the other "noise" and that the wall of sound was heavy enough to hide the raspiness with a pizo pickup.

Brian

[TimA]

Try, if you can find one, a Bridge EUB. These are stunning played arco but a bit boxy when played pizz. A bit expensive and they look stunning.