EUB Right hand technique

[Murf]

Hi Folks,
I'm hoping I can get some advice from the pros here regarding right hand (pizz/picking) technique. Having only recently purchased my first EUB (coming from an EB background)so I'm currently on a pretty steep re-learning curve. I can read music and have a good understanding of theory so I'm working through Simandl, Ray Browns Bass Method (which is fantastic btw) and the Todd Phillips "Essential techniques for double bass" dvds..now, funnily enough I'm having no problems with left hand technique (years of playing unlined fretless bg has given me pretty good intonation) and I've adapted to the extra stretch my fingers have to do.

What's driving me insane is right hand technique I am totally confused...I've read through the "stickied" links on the technique forum and have studied/copied how Double Bass players use their right hand (through various you tube videos and the Todd Phillips dvd) but I just cant get it!! is this because Upright bass rh technique isn't appropriate for EUB?..is there a totally different technique for EUB?..

I find that applying URB rh techniques is very painful and feels extremely awkward (I've been playing EB professionally for over 10 years so my right hand has the requisite calluses etc. )..I'm mostly "copying" Ray Browns right hand technique but am finding it very difficult and I find my hand starting to hurt after a very short period of time, also, I cant seem to bring second finger into play at all.

I can play fine by using my EB fingering but it dosent "look" right and I dont seem to get as much power/tone out of it..I love the EUB so much that its encouraging me to invest in a "proper" URB..till the time comes when I can afford a decent one I'd like to get my RH technique sorted out now rather than pick up bad habits and have to re-learn later.

Any advice /tips would be greatly appreciated, thanking you all in advance

Murf

[TheSuzie]

I know that Rufus has some good info in this on his dvd, don't know if it is covered in the book. Playing BG is not nearly enough to condition and toughen the fingers for playing DB type pizz in my experience. You will likely find that right hand technique involves the whole body or at least the whole right side in a way that is very different than for BG. If you are trying to find the strength just in your hand, you will hurt yourself. Yes, you can use your hand alone for some things but much of the time you need to be applying the weight and strength of your whole right arm.

I am by no means an expert but this is what I have been shown by teachers and more experienced players.

Peace,
S

[Francois Blais]

How about getting a teacher?

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Murf

.now, funnily enough I'm having no problems with left hand technique (years of playing unlined fretless bg has given me pretty good intonation) and I've adapted to the extra stretch my fingers have to do.

-Somehow I doubt this, I would prepare for a wake up call down the road in this department.

Originally Posted by francois

How about getting a teacher?

+1
EUB technique is the same as standard double bass technique. It is good that you are doing Simandl.

[willroland]

For EUB, it depends on the bass itself. For example, my primary instrument is the DB, but I often gig with EUB (NS CR4M) for convenience, especially for loud gigs. For me, the RH technique translates very well between the two, but, remember, I played DB first. I think having real DB chops is critical.

[Murf]

Thanks for the replies ,
I realise the importance of getting a teacher and am currently trying to find a good one (but its quite difficult in my location), but yes, I agree it's definitely the way to go.

I didnt mean to sound flippant about my left hand technique it's just at least I have some frame of reference for it whereas for rh technique I'm totally lost re the mechanics of it...eg: are my fingers parallel to the strings? (which I find the most comfortable but find it awkward to utilise my second finger) or perpendicular (like bg)?..From studying what videos I can it seems the index finger is perpendicular to the strings but the string is plucked with the side of the finger rather than (like bg) the pad.

Actually the more I think about this the more I realise I probably will only work this out with a teacher.

Thanks for the input anyway..much appreciated.

cheers
Murf

[daHammer]

Hi,

I play/have played URB, several different EUBs and BG and find that, for me, RH technique for EUB is more or less the same as for URB. As compared to BG I must usually have more "meat" on the strings than I do on BG, and the angle of attack has to be closer to parallel to the strings than perpendicular in order to get good tone and volume. In other words, with BG I tend to "pluck" the strings whereas on URB or EUB I tend to "strike" them with the side of the finger. Nevertheless, in order to play really fast passages, as in solos, I find that I have to use a RH position more like that for BG so that I pluck the strings more toward the tips than toward the sides of my fingers. If you can, do take a look at the Christian McBride - Niels Pederson bass duet of "Bye Bye Blackbird" on You Tube for a fine example of some different RH positions for upright bass.

[ChasFL]

Hi Murf,

Since you said that this is your first encounter with a form of URB, does the new bass your'e playing have an extra high action? I think many EB players first going over to URB style, whether it's even an EUB, can often get one with extra high action and not know that this doesn't have to be the norm for an URB and that the action can be taken down. This could be the cause of the ache in your rh and why you're finding it difficult to get a good rh technique.

Just a thought.

[butchonbass]

On my Ergo, I anchor my hand with the thumb and pluck with the side of my index finger. The more meat you get on the string, the better the sound. Since I've built up a pretty good callus on my index, it's sounding better and better. I played URB briefly in college a loooong time ago when I was a tuba player. Back then I got blisters..

[Murf]

Originally Posted by butchonbass

On my Ergo, I anchor my hand with the thumb and pluck with the side of my index finger. The more meat you get on the string, the better the sound. Since I've built up a pretty good callus on my index, it's sounding better and better. I played URB briefly in college a loooong time ago when I was a tuba player. Back then I got blisters..

That's exactly how I'm using my rh at the moment (phew..at least I was "kinda" on the right track)..My main problem with this technique though is I'm finding it difficult to use my 2nd finger as well (for playing quicker passages), at the moment I approach the string with my 2nd finger, pluck, then follow it with my 1st finger..in a 2,1,2,1 motion rather than 1,2 etc...but this feels rather awkward.

Thanks a million for taking the time to reply and post pics

cheers
Murf.
ps. I'm using an NS Design WAV 4 with reasonably high action.

[ChasFL]

Originally Posted by Murf

ps. I'm using an NS Design WAV 4 with reasonably high action.

Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity of what you've been used to all this time playing an EB, that it could be that because the NS Design WAV 4 is one of the "Neck on a Stand" designs as compared to say the Azola baby bass or other EUB's that have a substantial body to them, it feels awkward not to have some kind of full body anchor all of a sudden that you are used to with an EB.

The "Neck on a Stand" designs of EUB's have always seemed awkward to me when I have tried them, as though there is more focus needed to support and anchor them when playing and it could be the focus of keeping it anchored that creates the difficulty in trying to develop a good rh technique. Plus the high action you mentioned can be an obstacle also if you are not used to it.

[Murf]

Originally Posted by ChasFL

Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity of what you've been used to all this time playing an EB, that it could be that because the NS Design WAV 4 is one of the "Neck on a Stand" designs as compared to say the Azola baby bass or other EUB's that have a substantial body to them, it feels awkward not to have some kind of full body anchor all of a sudden that you are used to with an EB.

The "Neck on a Stand" designs of EUB's have always seemed awkward to me when I have tried them, as though there is more focus needed to support and anchor them when playing and it could be the focus of keeping it anchored that creates the difficulty in trying to develop a good rh technique. Plus the high action you mentioned can be an obstacle also if you are not used to it.

Hi Chas, appreciate the input and I think you've "hit the nail on the head" as it were. I'm loving my WAV 4 but like you said I'm feeling a bit lost without any "Anchor points"..ie with RH technique I cant feel the body of the bass (like an EB or obviously an URB) so my right arm feels like its floating a bit. Having said that I'm approaching it as if I'm playing an URB and am steadily learning proper (hopefully) URb techniques..but it is quite difficult applying these to EUB mainly because of the lack of for want of a better word the "physical presence" of an URB (eg: the physical point where oine has to switch to thumb position.).

All in all I'm having a blast with this, it's like learning how to use a new tool, and as much as I love my EUB for its portability I've a new found respect for URB players (plus I know its only a matter of time before I invest in a "proper" bass


cheers
murf

[endorka]

Originally Posted by Murf

Hi Chas, appreciate the input and I think you've "hit the nail on the head" as it were. I'm loving my WAV 4 but like you said I'm feeling a bit lost without any "Anchor points"..ie with RH technique I cant feel the body of the bass (like an EB or obviously an URB) so my right arm feels like its floating a bit.

I remember this feeling well when I started with the wav, as a strong advocate of the "floating thumb" method on the EB I was especially aware of not having a solid anchor. Initially I had my thumb in the concave corner bit where the neck meets the body, but it wasn't 100% ideal. After a while, one day I realised I had stopped thinking about it and my hand was doing its own thing, and was no longer anchored anywhere, other than my shoulder. Now I seem to use my arm and wrist, with the hand plucking one-finger style as a unit. The whole arm has developed a kindof rhythm of its own, with definitely some kindof bounce, almost like a drumstick hitting a drum. I can get pretty fast with this, but for skips or faster I have to use a two finger technique.

I don't think the floating right arm is a problem, it's just that you are not used to it. I guess soon enough you won't even think about it.

Jennifer

[willroland]

I don't endorse the anchor method for the legit side finger technique. At least for me, the anchor prevents my second finger from moving properly as it tightens my hand muscle. I prefer an open hand technique that moves the crease between the thumb and first finger near the side of the fingerboard. Also, without the anchor I am freer to use my whole arm, which is essential to good tone (See Rufus Reid, Evolving Bassist).

I will say however, that I sometimes move to a finger tip technique for really fast stuff above high D. For this technique, the anchor provides a benefit by providing resistance to the finger tip movement. Also, with the anchor, I can move in and out of the finger tip technique very quickly and return to the side finger for normal playing.

By the way, I use this approach with DB and EUB the same.

[ChasFL]

I don't think that it is so much an issue of having an anchor in this case as it the new sensation of playing a fingerboard with no body attached to it. As Jennifer said, it's just a matter of getting used to it and I'm sure after practicing with it on a consistent basis, it will become second nature to you as playing an EB has become.