Having Trouble hearing myself in band

[alicebc]

Here is the short story: I play a Clevinger EUB in a community jazz band. I have been playing the eub only a year but progressing. I have to share the bass line with a keyboard bass player (mother of the conductor). She was there before me and I was told that she will always be there.)
Anyway, I have been trying to find a solution to the problem that I find it difficult to hear myself (and tune myself) with the booming of the bass line coming from the keyboard. I have asked the conductor numerous times to balance the basses with no success. She keeps telling me that "she can hear me", even though I tell her that I can't hear myself over the volume of the other "bass player". Last night, she even turned UP the keyboard bass player and told me that I was plenty loud (even though I purposely had turned my volume all the way down so that she might be able to hear that the bass sound was coming from the keyboard. I have asked that we both be plugged into the same amp so the bass sound comes from the same speaker. No response from her. Does anyone here have any ideas for me?

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by alicebc

I have to share the bass line with a keyboard bass player (mother of the conductor). She was there before me and I was told that she will always be there.)

This.
It'll suck until she croaks.
I personally would start playing arco nearly exclusively since there is a bass player already, and aim my amp at my head.

[alicebc]

D.A.R.K. Your response made me laugh. Thanks. Arco, in jazz? Was that a joke? And, I am aiming the amp at my head, but I'm wishing it were a gun. Conductor tells me to turn up my highs to "cut through"....

[Marty Forrer]

The conductor Knows jack, so does the keyboard player. Crank your mids. If that doesn't work, quit and dont be scared to tell them why.

[rosskratter]

It's always a pain in the ass trying to balance with someone who's doubling you. Plus if you're truly improvising bass lines and not reading written lines, then they would conflict with each other. IMHO, there should never, ever be two bass players in a big band, playing at the same time, unless, in a special circumstance, one is comping and the other is soloing. Ever. EVER. End of story. Don't be afraid to stand your ground, man.

[rosskratter]

Originally Posted by Marty Forrer

The conductor Knows jack, so does the keyboard player. Crank your mids. If that doesn't work, quit and dont be scared to tell them why.

+1000

[GrowlerBox]

Solid-body EUBs make pretty nice clubs ...

[Plays_For_Dog]

Turn your amp off for an entire set. If no one notices, quit and go somewhere you will be appriciated and utilized.

Also, +1 on cranking the mids. I'd try that before killing your amp. Either way, if you're still not noticed, it's time to move along.

[abaguer]

So there are still conductors out there in 2012 that still believe jazz swings best when keys and bass double the bass line? Well, maybe the Mayans were onto something.

The conductor doesn't know jack.

This is what I always do: regardless of gig (jazz, causal, wedding, top 40, festival) if there is too much stuff happening on the lower end of sound spectrum I simply lean over to the keyboardist or guitarist and tell them they don't have to play the bass line because there is a bass player there, or I nicely tell them that our bass frequencies are clashing and that they should leave the subfloor to me.

My wife's 75 yr old Irish aunt, who I love dearly, is a piano player who even though she toured in Ireland with a swing band in her youth, would double bass lines or play octaves below middle C when we played together at family jams. I finally told her that with an upright there she didn't have to play on the bottom, she could voice her chords in the middle of the keyboard. This was apparently a revelation to her. Now there is a lot more separation when we play.

Regardless of how old the lady is, she should be told not to double the bass line for the sake of the group. And really, the conductor should know better.

[alicebc]

Thank you for all the advice so far. I love my Clevinger too much to use it as a club but I could use her saxophone!
Fill in info: we are playing written charts. The brass and saxes improvise and the piano when called for but I haven't learned to improvise yet. There is a separate piano besides this keyboard. The key bass plays the bassline unless there is some extra percussion she can play on it. She was there for years before I arrived on BG two years ago and then a year ago I was asked to learn an upright. I loved it so much I bought my Clevinger in April. I am reminded over and over by conductor of the fact that I knew when I asked to play that there was already a bass player. (Translation: I am doubling her!) I was a total newbie at BG when I started but practiced seriously. As I do the upright now. I am an adequate player for the little time I have played. (I played in a Pit band for the Producers in June. That's really where I would like to be.)
I have asked the conductor that the key bass and I be plugged into the same amp/speaker. (This happened at a concert, once but never during rehearsal. And, at concert, the keybass did not turn her own speaker off.) I have suggested that the keybass play an octave up (with a push of a button changing the octave) and got no reply to this which I guess means "no". I have asked that she pick a new voice on the keyboard for her to use but they only consider the 5 or 6 bass voices on it.
From your responses here, it sounds like my suggestions were in the ballpark of what to try. I wasn't sure as I don't have enough experience yet with how to optimize the amp. I will try cranking up the mids. At this point, I think it is time to walk away. It is no longer fun and I can not hear myself to tune so end up training my fingers to hit notes that are not in tune without being aware of it. (A Trombone told me before the last concert that I was hitting my F, sharp. This was total news to me and devastating. The conductor agreed with her and told me to work on my tuning in this song. That's when I began to try to remedy the problem of not being able to hear myself to complete resistance from the conductor. "I can hear you", she keeps telling me. "You are plenty loud!"
I currently live in an area with limited opportunities for me to play. I'm playing with the band tonight at an open house for the local community college. This might just be my swan song.
Question: It isn't my imagination that I can't hear myself? The conductor has me feeling like I am some Diva -- and a deaf one at that.

[kraigo]

Earplugs might help. I agree with the mids and pointing the amp at your head as well.

[1954bassman]

Quit on good tems, don't make a scene / burn a bridge.

Not being able to hear yourself could be caused by lots of factors.

[Marty Forrer]

You need your speaker tilted up at your ears, and you need more mids. Lots of mids may sound a bit obnoxious to you when you are so close to your speaker, but trust me, in a busy band situation that is the key to cutting through. With mids up you can even reduce your volume. However the prevailing attitudes in that group suggest to me you're in a no win situation.

[alicebc]

So how should the dials read? The amp I use there has the low, high and two mids. Start at 12 oclock for all and what should I try first?

[HolmeBass]

They may be able to hear you, but to play in tune you need to be able to hear yourself *really well*, and I doubt you can. If the roles were reversed I am sure the piano player would complain that she couldn't hear herself.

[alicebc]

Piano player has complained in rehearsals before concerts.She plays a minii grand so she is heard everywhere else but not by herself. They fix that by placing a mic in her piano and adding a monitor facing her. Done. Easy. She's happy. Everyone is happy.

[Marty Forrer]

Originally Posted by alicebc

So how should the dials read? The amp I use there has the low, high and two mids. Start at 12 oclock for all and what should I try first?

Try the two mid knobs at 1 or 2 oclock and maybe even knock the bass knob back to 11 oclock. You'll need to experiment a little. EUBs typically have pretty strong bass so you likely will need to roll the bass back a bit. Leave the highs on 12 initially until you find what works. On it's own it may not sound like what you want to hear, but in the band mix you should find more definition and clarity. You may even be able to play quieter once you find the sweet spot.
FWIW: I still think the conductor and the piano player are not cutting it.

[alicebc]

Thanks Marty. I'll try the dials this way tonight. And, yes, I agree but it is, what it is. (The conductor pulled me in to her office at break on Monday with "Alice! In my office." (This is a volunteer community jazz band -- all adults -- I'm way older than her!) This was after I had had enough with the booming bass sound coming from the key bass, and had turned my volume off just to be sure that what I was hearing really was the keybass. My frustration got the best of me; I was vocal about it. Meeting with her included mud slinging (why is this problem personal?) and ended with her beginning to heave into her hands (she is a "take-no-prisoners" type of person... but here she was all teary and sobby saying that "she, sob sob, had never, sob sob, been accused, sob sob, of driving anyone out of the band... sob sob.." If I had had much respect for her before that, there is not much left after that.
That might be the end of the "long story" version even though my husband reminds me that I had complained about "hearing myself" back when I first started on BG. This problem has been there for 3 years but has only really affected me now that I need to tune each and every note as I play.

[alicebc]

Final Report: Last night's little performance at a community college Open House. I arrived early. The risers were in place, piano miked with monitor for piano player. Key bass plugged into the amp which sat on the riser directly behiind me. I plugged in, tuned, turned dials as advised. Conductor took time to tune the band. noticed that everybody was sharp and laughed and wondered about that. I waited for a sound check for the basses. None. She sat on her chair (she's playing sax). She did not move. We began our first number and the volume of the keybass was huge. When did they establish this volume? Before I got there? How was the volume determined in an empty room. Previous Concerts, I used to come really early and tell her I was there early for a sound check she would vehemently tell me that she couldn't do that without the entire band there. Okay, so the band was there. ...
As a bass player that has only played in this one band, besides a successful stint in a Pit band with different conductor, do I expect a sound check? If so, how long should this sound check take? Where should the sound check be taken from? (These questions are rather rhetorical as of course I need a sound check and it needs to be from back in the room... but for my sanity, it would be nice to hear from you professionals. Thanks.
Sidenote: yes, I am out of there -- music to be returned this week. But want to say that a year ago this program lost a chunk of funding through this community college even though it was made up from non students. It was going to fold for lack of funding. I, anonymously donated a chunk of money to the program. Then a few months ago, the program was again on the fritz and needed to find its own source of funding entirely. Everyone was moaning about the malice of this. In a few days I researched a grant that the band could apply for and my husband and I talked this conductor through the grant process, proofreading her proposal and encouraging her all the way to meet the grant deadline a few days later. So, (toot my horn!) My involvement in this organization brought in over $10,000 with potential to receive this kind of money yearly. Not too shabby when you live in an area of small towns with limited resources.

[GrowlerBox]

It's clearly their loss, in all sorts of ways. Walk out with your head (and middle finger) up.

Edit: I'd like to reiterate my club suggestion.