How hard is it to learn

[Steve Cat]

I played one of the higher end model of the NS Bass in a music store and was immediately taken by its sound, especially the musical sound created by sliding up, that Jaco sound. So I am thinking seriously thinking about trying the NS 4 wav as a sort of a "Bucket List" thing.

I'm 62 played the guitar most of my life, play banjo and mando too. Still have my dexterity, I recently learned the Prelude for Cello suite 1 on my mando and am pretty proud of doing so. I played fender jazz bass for our church band because they had no other player and basically just played root fifth.

Can I learn to play this monster in a reasonable period of time? I notice that the sting length is much longer so I assume runs are made across the strings. Does one get tired standing up all the time? I really just want to entertain myself by playing melodic pieces, improvising new agey, jazzy lines rather than playing backup in a band. (would ultimately like to play Haitian Fight Song)

Or would I just be in way over my head here. Also does the wav sound close to the higher end NS products. I am also taken with the new Roland Micro Cube Bass amp. Would this be good enough for home, their guitar amp certainly is)? So what do you think?

Thanks

[damonsmith]

I wouldn't say it is easy, but with a good teacher it is very clear to learn the upright bass. You want to find a teacher who teaches classical bass technique regardless of the style you want to play or even the style the teacher plays.
Simandl is the most common and most proven, although others like Rabbath, Billie and Nanny work as well.
Practicing these methods with the bow is the fastest and surest way to get the instrument together.
In just a few years of practicing the right things as little as 30 min a day (but you can't really skip days if your practice time is short) you could be playing pretty well.
I have had older students than you really get to be good players.

[Steve Cat]

Why learn to bow if I don't intend to do it. I would think that bowing would be the hard part, or is it building up the fingers of the left hand?

[gschank]

I am also considering purchasing an NS Design EUB, but have played electric bass many years. The interest is in jazz, and the bow would not be the big issue. Has anyone out there transitioned from electric to stand up, and can share the best way to go about it, pitfalls, etc.? Thanks.

[hdiddy]

Like they say, anything worthwhile takes time and effort. This baby requires a commitment. I think there have been a fair number of people that have dropped all other instruments once they caught the bug, or basically get scared off.

GS, forget the EUB if your interest is in jazz. Go all the way and get a DB. You'll pay relatively the same amount of money for a starter DB as you would an NSD. The DB also has more street cred.

Don't expect to be able to use the same technique you did with a EB. It's a completely different approach and a completely different instrument with it's own problems - mainly physical spacing and how to get across wide spans on the fingerboard.

The fastest way getting up to speed is to learn the bow (at least at first) so you can get the left hand fingering down. You can drop it later but it's good to start with a bow. It develops intonation, good form, and left hand finger strength among other things. I'm about to abandon the bow and focus on my pizz only after playing for several years now.

Get a good instrument, or rent one even (to see if you like it), and the most important part is finding a qualified teacher.

BTW: When I play my EBs now I feel like I'm cheating it's so easy to play the same exact thing I do on a DB - but I don't get that "sound" and the "rumble".

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Steve Cat

Why learn to bow if I don't intend to do it. I would think that bowing would be the hard part, or is it building up the fingers of the left hand?

It is hearing the notes the clearest way possible to find the positions. People have done it pizzicato but in that case it is either through decades of work or innate genius, I doubt you want to risk counting on either one!

I disagree with hiddy on the EUB vs. cheap upright. I say get the EUB, they normally sound better than cheap uprights and they are more useful later (for travel etc.) when you get a good upright.

[dvh]

I just recently acquired an upright after 25 years of EB playing. I agree with much of the above advice. To reinforce:

- DB (or EUB) is an entirely different instrument. The notes may be the same but everything else, especially technique, is a whole new ball game
- IMO getting a DB is preferential to getting an EUB
- I was thinking I wouldn't bother with a bow, but they threw one in and I am happy they did. Might as well learn both techniques.
- it is a physically demanding instrument to play. The standing isn't a big deal, I already do that with EB. In my case, it's the forearms/wrist that tire out.
- to my detriment on DB, years ago I consciously made a practice of avoiding open strings on EB. On DB, they are a foundation of playing, both to maintain intonation and to avoid a lot of left hand shifting and stretching.
- I practice half an hour to forty-five minutes a day and jam every Monday evening with friends for about 3 hours (by which time my right arm and hand are shot)
- I'm learning a great deal more about playing bass and am applying more what I learn from the DB to EB rather than the other way around
- it's never too late!

Have fun!

[Steve Cat]

This may seem very odd, but if I have to learn to use a bow, or at a minimum, its a good idea, and the eub is a difficult instrument to learn to play, and I need get a teacher, then I think I rather learn to play the violin, because what was stopping me was not the lack of frets but the difficulty of learning to bow.

Thanks for the honest input, probably kept me from a big mistake.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Steve Cat

This may seem very odd, but if I have to learn to use a bow, or at a minimum, its a good idea, and the eub is a difficult instrument to learn to play, and I need get a teacher, then I think I rather learn to play the violin, because what was stopping me was not the lack of frets but the difficulty of learning to bow.

Thanks for the honest input, probably kept me from a big mistake.

Well the difference here is for bass you just have to PRACTICE with the bow, where violin you have to PLAY with the bow.
You really just need to saw through scales and exercises with long notes that don't change as they die away (as happens pizzicato).

That is different from mastering the instrument with the bow.
It really isn't all that hard with a teacher and practicing with the bow.
Trying to find shortcuts beyond that are very hard.

[6stringbassist]

If you don't want to learn to use a bow then don't.

I personally dislike the sound of bass played with one, so I don't use one.

I only play jazz pizzicato, that's what I like and what I do.

I have both an EUB, an NSCR4, and a DB.

I love the sound of both, but the EUB is just so much more practical, and so much easier to play, coming from a bass guitar background.

The EUB is actually quite easy to learn to play, the NS models especially, the only 'problem' I encountered was that I've played a 6 string bass for years, and it took a while to get used to having just four strings, I really miss not having those extra notes.

But do get a teacher, even if only to show you the basics, there are plenty of good books, I bought the Rufus Reid one which is excellent, there's a DVD as well.

[damonsmith]

Only liking pizzicato isn't going to make you play in tune. As I said, unless you have decades to learn or innate musical genius, practicing with the bow is the fastest way to play in tune.

You should just get a 6 string EUB there are several out there, I came from 4 string double bass (which is still my main instrument) and got a 6 and then 7 string EUB.

[MingusAmongUs]

I 2nd Damon's point on the importance of the bow, regardless of whether you ever intend to perform with it. Almost any teacher worth his or her salt will require it anyway. The fact is that with notes at that low frequency, on an instrument with no frets, the human ear really just can't hear well enough to know if it's in tune (barring the aforementioned "innate genius" ).

I wouldn't say "bow or don't play this instrument", but I would *strongly* encourage practicing with the bow. I might even demand it of my students. I haven't had one fight me on it ever so I don't know how I'd handle that.

On top of that, like Damon says, the notes do different things arco vs pizz. The pitch will drop off pizz, and tend to sound sharp arco, depending on pressure, etc. These are important characteristics of the instrument that a good player needs to be aware of. Good luck. Don't be so easily discouraged.... but if you are, then this is probably not the instrument for you.

*** edit:
BTW, I'm talking about DB in general, as I don't play EUB, but I think it still applies

[Bruce Lindfield]

I made the transition from decades of BG to EUB and then to real DB!

I think that if you want the sound of Jazz - then DB is the only thing that gets it!

It's easy to get that Jaco sound on EUB - much harder to get a sound like Mingus, say!

Having played EUB and DB I think intonation is actually harder on EUB - whereas I thought my intonation was OK on EUB - often I found that it was 'out' with piano in unison parts - whereas on DB I think the way you play it forces you to think about intonation.

I do find that solos are easier on EUB - but conversely after DB the G sounds too 'thin' to me now...

There are many pluses and minuses - too many to write in one post!

[6stringbassist]

Could it have been the piano that was slightly out of tune, if your EUB was tuned with an electronic tuner ?.

I think that with DB there are far too many people saying you need to do this, and you need to do that, that puts a lot of people off the instrument, which is a shame, because it's a beautiful instrument.

I totally agree that it's beneficial to find a good teacher.

I manage to play an unlined 6 string fretless in tune OK, and I have dots on my EUB, and on the side of my DB, so that helps.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by 6stringbassist

I think that with DB there are far too many people saying you need to do this, and you need to do that, that puts a lot of people off the instrument, which is a shame, because it's a beautiful instrument.

Experienced teachers and players say those things for a reason. Just as many people try to get out of doing those things, end up playing poorly and that is just as off-putting, if not more.

You may well be the one in a million genius that doesn't have to do the traditional work to sound good, that is great for you, but does not make it responsible to pass that along as good advice to those less fortunate!

[SBassman]

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[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by 6stringbassist

Could it have been the piano that was slightly out of tune, if your EUB was tuned with an electronic tuner ?.

I manage to play an unlined 6 string fretless in tune OK, and I have dots on my EUB, and on the side of my DB, so that helps.

No - in many cases it was an electronic piano - I think the dots were the problem!

So - fine when you are at home with no pressure and good lighting conditions - then you can look at dots!

But when you are at a gig with dim lighting or harsh bright lighting and playing a fast tune with key changes - then the dots are not always there for you and on the EUB with no physical reference points - intonation can be harder than a real DB which has the body as a quick reference and also is easier to hear.

So the EUB has no real acoustic volume when played with other instruments, so it harder to use your ear as well!

I find that on the same tunes that were a problem on EUB - I am fine on DB!

I have kept the EUB as an indestructible backup - but I only really play DB now!

Having said that - I do think that DB is a difficult instrument to play in comparison and much more physical than BG.

When I first started I could hardly get through one fast Jazz tune - let alone a whole set!! It takes a lot of effort and practice to get stamina and then enough volume to develop a good sound.

So each year I think I am doing well - then get my ass kicked at Jazz Summerschool - where the bass tutors are producing massively more volume than me - even when they use my bass!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by 6stringbassist

I have both an EUB, an NSCR4, and a DB.

I love the sound of both, but the EUB is just so much more practical, and so much easier to play, coming from a bass guitar background.

Originally Posted by 6stringbassist

I think that with DB there are far too many people saying you need to do this, and you need to do that, that puts a lot of people off the instrument, which is a shame, because it's a beautiful instrument.

But don't you think the difficulties you have with DB might be addressed by doing what people say, rather than trying to ignore centuries of experience in playing Double Bass ...

People have been playing this instrument for a long time now - the challenges and issues are the same and no reason to suppose that the answers have changed, just because we now have other instruments that are easier to play..?

[6stringbassist]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

But don't you think the difficulties you have with DB might be addressed by doing what people say, rather than trying to ignore centuries of experience in playing Double Bass ...

People have been playing this instrument for a long time now - the challenges and issues are the same and no reason to suppose that the answers have changed, just because we now have other instruments that are easier to play..?

I'm not actually having any problems, I gig regularly.

I prefer my EUB simply because it's easier to move around, and amplify etc, and it looks cool.

I have a good teacher, he teaches on the jazz course at Birmingham Conservatoire, and he's cool about me not using a bow, he explained about why it's a good idea to practise with one, with regards to intonation etc, but it's really never been a problem, possibly because I've always played it with other people or along to recordings, so I've been able to spot any problems with my intonation.

I also play a 6 string unlined fretless, so I guess that's also helped.

My whole point was that telling people that they need to do something, that they don't want to do puts them off playing in the first place, and they miss out on something that's fantastic.

They may have no desire to actually gig and play with others, if they do and they realise for themselves that there are issues they need to address, then they can.

It's better for that to happen than for then to be put off playing in the first place surely.

I always advocate having lessons from a good teacher, whether it's DB or bass guitar, but you need to take what you need from these lessons, eg I can sight read, but that's not vital to learn, so if you don't want to then don't learn.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by 6stringbassist

My whole point was that telling people that they need to do something, that they don't want to do puts them off playing in the first place, and they miss out on something that's fantastic....

But what if not doing it that way means you get injuries, repetitive strain etc. ...

There are good reasons why people say you should play a certain way - as I was saying, DB requires far more physical effort to get a good sound and the chance of damaging yourself goes up!

Do you want to be giving this advice and then having it on your conscience when that person ends up maybe with a wrist inury that means they can never play any instrument again?