Looking for 34" or 35" electric uprights

[jamiefoxer]

I have a Palatino VE-500 and I was disappointed with the reduced speed and ability to play comfortably (i'm primarily a bass guitarist). I've given the Palatino a try at several gigs and never really "enjoyed" playing. I'm figuring much of it comes having to learn Simandl technique to really be able to play a 41" instrument. I'm a multi-percussionist, drummer, and electric bassist, so I really do not have the time to add an extra technique study to my practice regimen.

I wanted to look at possibly selling my Palatino VE-500 and get a 34 or 35 scale instrument that can emulate an Ampeg Baby Bass or upright double-bass.

Can I get suggestions for price and quality? I've heard about the BSX Flip Basses and Azola's Gypsy basses, but I wanted other options. Thanks!

P.S. - Cheaper the better. If there is anything in the 34 or 35 range in the near price of the Palatino, even better.

[Ed Fuqua]

Then just stick an endpin in a Fender Precision and have done with it.

Part of what gets you the sound of an EUB is string length, if you get something that has the string length of a horizontal fretless bass, guess what it's going to sound like? A couple of things you might want to look at are the Kydd, the Barker or an NS Cello.
The first two are basically just regular old electric bass guitars that have some doohickeys that make them stand upright rather than hang from straps.

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

I have a Palatino VE-500 and I was disappointed with the reduced speed and ability to play comfortably (i'm primarily a bass guitarist).

Can I get suggestions for price and quality? I've heard about the BSX Flip Basses and Azola's Gypsy basses, but I wanted other options.

Pretty much ran the same course as you. Tried the Palatino in a Music Store for an hour and didn't like the action.

Have heard only the best things about Azola. The Gypsy basses are reportedly the best 'transitional' EUB from electric guitar.

I have played the Dean Pace EUB and the piazo pickup sounds great in an otherwise unremarkable 'neck on a stand'. With a drop peg it would look better and it has the mwah sound, with a "C" shaped neck and 34" inch scale. Runs about $500.

[WillBuckingham]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Then just stick an endpin in a Fender Precision and have done with it.

+1. Or a strap.

[Basso Musico]

Check AlterEGO basses. I know they do custom sizes for the Acoustic and babyEGO lines (N.B. the Acoustic line is out of the price range you are talking about; babyEGO is much closer), but in particular check out the Unico bass. I personally have not seen one, but one significant aspect of this bass is that it is closer to Palatino price range. Having said that, I'm not sure if they do custom sizing on the Unico or not. There are a couple of threads - one is under the EUB list and the other is a sponsored link. Also, check the website, http://www.alter-ego.it

Best,
Rick McLaughlin
Endorser of AlterEGO instruments and Gallien Krueger amplifiers

[jamiefoxer]

Thanks for your comments, Basso Musico.

I'm wondering, are all 34" basses essentially like the Barker Bass (just an upright, electric-bass sounding, instrument)? If that's the case, why would anyone buy them, if they're going for the upright sound? i'd like to hear more comparisons from people who've played them. I didn't mind the Palatino sound...it was close enough to the upright sound...but the string length would have necessitated taking the time to learn Simandl technique, and I don't have the time to practice YET another instrument technique. I'm a drummer, percussionist, electric bassist, and I wanted to add the ability to play a few side gigs that require the "upright sound".

How is the Conklin MEU or BSX Flip Bass and Azola Gypsy basses...what are they like? Thank you for your replies in advance.

[CapnSev]

How about the Dean Pace Bass? It's pretty cheap, and lots of fun.

http://www.deanguitars.com/home.php

Go to the basses page and you'll see it.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

I don't have the time to practice YET another instrument technique. I'm a drummer, percussionist, electric bassist, and I wanted to add the ability to play a few side gigs that require the "upright sound".

Honestly, we get this question all the time: "how can I get an upright DB sound from a BG?" It's a physics problem really. A DB and an BG have very, very different physical/acoustic properties, and every step away from the physical structure of a DB makes it harder to sound like a DB.

I've read through dozens of these threads, and the main thing I've taken away from them is the best way to get a DB-like sound from a BG (or short-scale EUB if you insist) is to play it with DB technique. After that, using a P bass or a hollowbody bass, ideally fretless and with flats, will get you in the ballpark- as long as you're using your hands like a DB player.

IOW I wouldn't bother with the quest for a short scale EUB. You'll end up spending more money than you planned, and frankly getting very little return for your trouble. By contrast I had an old Ovation fretless hollowbody with flats, and as long as I used even newbie attempts at DB technique it sounded decently DB-like. However I also have a nice BSX Allegro Acoustic, and I can tell you for sure the string length makes a big difference in tone. If you go EUB, take your lumps and get full scale. Otherwise, get a fretless Hofner-clone Beatle bass or something like that, you'll get much more bang per buck.

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

How is the Conklin MEU or BSX Flip Bass and Azola Gypsy basses...what are they like? Thank you for your replies in advance.

Certainly not in the budget you seem to target (cheap).

There's also the Zeta Crossover, the KYDD bass.

Maybe the Ergo Cello has that kind of scale?
I don't know, sorry.
The Ergo EUB seems a very good instrument for its low price.
Maybe Damon Smith will jump in and give details about the Cello model. (if he knows anything about them)

[jamiefoxer]

I really wish that these companies (BSX, Conklin, Azola, etc.) actually took the time to record simple videos showing their instruments sound. It would do much to compare.

I noticed that Tony Banda (Salsa, Latin Jazz bassist from the West Coast) is a user of the Azola Gypsy. I'm trying to see if he can give me a lowdown on the Azola Gypsy bass as primarily a salsa/latin-jazz style bass. If it works for him, that's the sound I'm trying to get (without having to change my fingering technique).

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

If that's the case, why would anyone buy them, if they're going for the upright sound?

It's mostly because it's all cats like you, who want to look like they're playing upright but don't want to put the work in.

Even the full string length EUBs (the solid body ones anyway) all sound like fretless basses on steroids, not uprights. If you don't have the body producing the sound, it's all string and pickup.
With those basses the big division is - does it reproduce the bridge and overstand of an upright or does it more resemble the fingerboard/bridge relationship of a bass guitar? The former is aimed at someone who already plays upright but needs a portable solution for travel. The latter is aimed at someone who plays bass guitar but wants a sound and or look closer to an actual double bass.

And then you've got those things that are just fretless bass guitars that get an endpin stuck on them or are put on some kind of stand. Those are aimed at folks who only want to look like they're playing upright.

[daHammer]

The NS Design Bass-Cello has the 'standard' BG scale length (34") and light strings (interchangeable with BG strings in fact) so from some standpoints it's a comparatively easy transition from BG to a more URB-like sound. In fact, the Bass-Cello's sound is almost indistinguishable from the NS CR4M/CR5M models if that's close enough to URB to satisfy. As was said in an earlier post you need to use URB right hand technique and, more or less, left hand positions though not fingering to get a satisfactory sound. The NS Bass-Cello is not a low cost solution, however, unless you can find a used one.

[blockhd]

Im buying your palatino. Send me PM with price and we will arrange D=

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

I really wish that these companies (BSX, Conklin, Azola, etc.) actually took the time to record simple videos showing their instruments sound. It would do much to compare.

I noticed that Tony Banda (Salsa, Latin Jazz bassist from the West Coast) is a user of the Azola Gypsy. I'm trying to see if he can give me a lowdown on the Azola Gypsy bass as primarily a salsa/latin-jazz style bass. If it works for him, that's the sound I'm trying to get (without having to change my fingering technique).

The problem is that they don't sound like a double bass, that's why. Why do an audio comparison when they make you buy their product and do the comparison yourself. It's like shooting themselves in the foot.

Back to the question at hand...

Latin-jazz demands a different sound than a jazz double bass. Typically it's punchier, and ok to be more electric. You dont' see straight ahead jazz players using an old school Ampeg baby bass much for a reason. There are plenty of great salsa bassists who use EB only (David Belove comes to mind). Why does it matter that you look like you're some sort of DB wannabe? IMO, NSD stuff sounds great, and I'm sure the BassCello would sound similar to the their 41" siblings. But even the 41" CR series doesn't sound like the real thing (I own one) but I do enjoy it's sound. It's an animal of its own.

And I find the idea of a crossover instrument silly. Playing on a shorter scale is not going to teach you proper fingering when you make a leap into a 41" scale. It won't train you for the higher string tensions (even with the lowest of tensions), the shifting, and a good right hand technique. I've seen guys who play DB using their right finger tips like they were pulling EB strings. It's a weak sound and they have to rely heavily on amplification/instrument to get any kind of sound. And even then they don't get the full potential of their gear. Even with a NSD CR4, you still need proper technique.

[jamiefoxer]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

It's mostly because it's all cats like you, who want to look like they're playing upright but don't want to put the work in.

Even the full string length EUBs (the solid body ones anyway) all sound like fretless basses on steroids, not uprights. If you don't have the body producing the sound, it's all string and pickup.
With those basses the big division is - does it reproduce the bridge and overstand of an upright or does it more resemble the fingerboard/bridge relationship of a bass guitar? The former is aimed at someone who already plays upright but needs a portable solution for travel. The latter is aimed at someone who plays bass guitar but wants a sound and or look closer to an actual double bass.

And then you've got those things that are just fretless bass guitars that get an endpin stuck on them or are put on some kind of stand. Those are aimed at folks who only want to look like they're playing upright.

As if playing upright is some sort of social status symbol...this is the type of purist/traditionalist mindset that limits innovation. I personally enjoy the sound of a natural upright in CERTAIN situations. But I'm of the thought that an electric bass is WAY more portable, playable, and versatile in styles and sounds. As I said, I'm a multi-instrumentalist. I can't take on more practice sessions / techniques. I'd like an instrument that allows me to satisfy some of that "give me the thump" purist crowd I encounter at salsa, latin jazz, and jazz gigs, without having to spend a decade becoming Ron Carter on the upright. Ron Carter can spend a lifetime just playing bass. I have to play electric bass, drumset, timbales, congas, bongos, etc. and each has particular techniques to get the most out of them.

I'm looking for an instrument CLOSER to an upright and Ampeg Baby Bass sound...and given that Tony Banda (a top latin jazz musician in the West Coast) uses Azola Gypsy basses, I'm sure they're a solution to some of the needs I need.

If I had my way, I'd play electric exclusively. Way faster neck, easier expression of my ideas, more versatility in sounds, more styles that can be played, thinner strings, etc. But given that in salsa and latin jazz, just like in regular jazz, there's a purist crowd of 45-65 years olds who still reminisce about the sounds of the 70s, and 80s, as a bass player, you get overlooked if you don't play an Ampeg Baby or a similar instrument. In fact, without any arrogance and with a humble honest admission that I still got way to go in learning my instrument, my electric bass playing is WAY better than the skills of many of the local Ampeg Baby players who play with the local salsa bands...but they get hired because they play the Baby...and I get left because my sound is "not the sound" for salsa. Thankfully, due to my dedicated daily practice and considerable playing skills, and the fact that I often double up on other instruments, my name has spread around as a dependable "do it all" musician. But even with those advantages over mostly "one instrument" musicians who rarely practice their instruments, they're still getting most of the gigs.

Total bullcrap, considering most modern salsa is recorded with a mix of baby basses and electric basses, but that's another story all together.

I'm trying to find a creative, modern solution to my needs. I'm not trying to buy into the "mystique of the upright" vibe on the cheap. If I REALLY wanted that, I would have been studying upright since I was young.

What I learned playing the Palatino is that I would have to spend SERIOUS time learning Simandl technique to really learn the instrument. I can play my Palatino right now, using my hybrid upright / electric bass technique, but at a reduced speed and accuracy of about 50%. Why bother learning Simandl and upright technique when I'm not planning to be Christian McBride or Ron Carter? I foresee my career more as a multi-instrumentalist in latin jazz, Caribbean, salsa, World, Latin pop, R&B and other fields. I don't see myself in a career of dedicated, purist jazz...although I love the masters and listen to them often (Mingus, Avery Sharpe, etc.). And, at the end of the day, I wouldn't want to limit myself to purist jazz gigs, because they don't pay, they're limited in quantity, and you have to compete with EVERYONE ELSE who is doing jazz. Trust me...I know. I've done countless trio or quartet gigs, either on drums, electric bass, or congas. They're fun to do...but the money is in being versatile enough to do anything thrown at you. I've done Flamenco gigs, Caribbean gigs, theatre work, Latin gigs, funk gigs, etc.

[ToneRanger]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

I have a Palatino VE-500 and I was disappointed with the reduced speed and ability to play comfortably (i'm primarily a bass guitarist).

I've recently changed to upright after 30+ years on BG. My speed and accuracy are greatly reduced - but that's the point. You are forced to play those long strings and heavy action quite differently. There's a reason DB players do things differently to BG, and it's largely to do with the physicality of the instrument.
If I just wanted to emulate an upright sound, I could get pretty close with my fretless Jazz, flats, a high action and some foam under the strings. But my upright with 40" strings does more than produce a different sound - it dictates a totally different approach to constructing parts.

[matthewbrown]

they're cheap,very portable, easy to play and sound good. also easy to maintain. highly recommended. i learned to make the transition on a 5string one.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

As if playing upright is some sort of social status symbol...

Nope, you miss the point. There is nothing that is going sound different about a 34 or 35 inch scale electric instrument just because it's not being held horizontally. That's not a social comment, that's not mysterious. That's just physics.

So the question is, if you already play an electric instrument that has a 34 or 35 inch mensure, what are you looking to gain by having one that is held in a different position?

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by jamiefoxer

I personally enjoy the sound of a natural upright in CERTAIN situations. But I'm of the thought that an electric bass is WAY more portable, playable, and versatile in styles and sounds.

Liking the sound of it in certain situations = a criterion based on actual musical sounds

Being portable, playable, and versatile = things that don't really have anything to do with music as such.

With respect: I really don't think this is about old guys being snobby. It's about folks concluding on the basis of experience that nothing really sounds like a double bass except a double bass. By all means, keep searching for sounds and means of expressing them, but that big-ass, awkward, hard and dangerous to play, irrationally inconvenient dishwasher box called the double bass has lasted the way it has because it has that sound.

[glenfong]

jamie,

quite agree that Tony Banda is a groove monster and his sound is equally monsterous. maybe try sending him a message on the Banda Brothers myspace page to inquire about his Gypsy bass?

the story behind the Gypsy bass, Tony wanted something real portable for touring. he kept asking Jill and Steve Azola until they came up with the Gypsy. It's actually named after Tony. the Banda (like the Jimi Hendrix group, Band of Gypsies) Gypsy bass!

an option offered for the Gypsy is the adjustable "Mambo Mute" that emulates that thumpy huge tone of the old Baby Bass. wonderful device that gets an ideal latin sound in my opinion. I had the chance to try a hollow bodied Gypsy at the Azola workshop that had the mute and loved it. however, I ended up ordering a Electroacoustic Baby bass. still, the Gypsy was so much fun to play, it's still on my wish list.