Barker Bass? What's the point and who would play one?

[mantelclock]

A while back there was a thread called 'where does your bass hang?' or something like that. The discussion involved opinions about the ideal position for holding a bass guitar. I remember replying to that thread that ideally, the neck would be close to vertical, similar to a classical guitarist's, because that position reduces strain on the tendons of the fingering arm. Of course this is not practical for a standard strap held electric bass guitar. This leads to the original question of what is the point of the Barker Bass. I am going to dismiss the issue of tone, because that is so subjective and in an amplified instrument is the result of so many factors unrelated to the construction of the instrument that it pales as an issue relative to the somewhat radical overall design of the Barker.

An offshoot of this thread is the comparison to a standard upright bass. The Barker is an electrified instrument with no practical acoustic sound, so this kind of comparison is a bit silly; the real comparison should be to electric uprights, like the NS Designs and the like. Most electric uprights have a scale length very close to a standard bass violin, without frets, because they have been designed for upright bass players who were looking for more volume and greater portability. The Barker, from what I can tell was designed by and for electric bass guitarists and therefore has a 34" scale which allows for comfortable playing of four notes per position throughout the length of the fretboard. It is, in essence, a semi-hollowbody electric bass stood on end.

Now that we know what we're talking about, we can ask the question 'Is it worth $3,000 to $4,000?' Many contributors to TB have raved about how great their SX basses sound and how well they're built for $125. It wouldn't take much imagination to make a forked or tripod endpin for an SX and create a 34" scale upright SX electric bass guitar. On resale, you wouldn't lose more than about $125. I daresay you would lose considerably more in reselling a Barker. Now, I don't mean to compare a cheap mass produced Chinese guitar to a handcrafted instrument made in a small workshop (although a lot of folks like to do that), but that is the price range that we're talking about here. Mr. Barker cannot possibly compete on cost with mass production facilities; he is basically making instruments one at a time at great cost to himself in time and materials. He is forced to price his instruments at a level that will sustain his business while not driving off potential buyers.

So, who would buy one?
1. someone who likes the overall concept and is uncomfortable playing a conventional bass guitar.
2. someone who is not concerned about resale value
3. someone who doesn't mind getting asked a slew of questions about his gear everywhere he plays
4. someone who doesn't play music for a living.

Disclaimer: I have never seen or played one of these basses. I based this response on information provided by the Barker web site.

[pointbass]

Mantleclock, I was hanging in there with you right up to the point where you made your summary. Realizing that you have never played a Barker, perhaps you still don't fully understand the appeal.

Originally Posted by mantelclock

1. someone who likes the overall concept and is uncomfortable playing a conventional bass guitar.

It is true that certain people may be more comfortable with the vertical orientation of the Barker, whether it be due to playing style, physical limitations or other factors. But there are many who routinely play a Barker that are quite comfortable with a conventional EB.

Originally Posted by mantelclock

2. someone who is not concerned about resale value

As with any higher end bass purchase, resale value will absolutely take a hit. This is the price one pays when venturing into the boutique bass market, whether it's a Fodera, Sadowsky, FBB, Stambaugh, Conklin or Barker, or any other boutique builder. It comes with the territory ...

Originally Posted by mantelclock

3. someone who doesn't mind getting asked a slew of questions about his gear everywhere he plays

Again, any player of higher end basses will receive these queries. This is not limited to Barker by any means. However, it is true that the uniqueness of the bass is an attention-getter

Originally Posted by mantelclock

4. someone who doesn't play music for a living.

This statement really doesn't make any sense to me. I will grant you that the average "rocker" probably wouldn't use a Barker, but a large percentage of the Barker players are serious musicians that are either making a living in music or are very active semi-pro's.

In your post you tended away from the tone issue in favor of the "radical overall design", but the tone is rather radical in and of itself. The sustain of the Barker is virtually unmatched by any other electric bass and is, in fact, one of the primary reasons players are drawn to it (and maybe in some cases why players shy away from it ). It is a unique sound .... not really an EB and not really a DB.

I would encourage you to try a Barker when the opportunity arises. It is quite unlike any other bass I have ever played. I don't know where you are located in the world, but should you ever find yourself in the greater NYC/NJ/Phila area give me a shout .....

[mantelclock]

pointbass,

If I understand correctly, you more or less agree with the first three points in my summary. I brought up points 2 and 3 because they are legitimate concerns of some players. As far as gear gawking goes, only unusual looking instruments will draw the average person's attention. I don't consider bass players to be average people, and Joe Blow's non bass playing friends in the audience are not likely to say 'Wow, is that a Sadowsky Metro that dude's playing?' They're equally unlikely to say 'Man I just cannot believe the sustain on that Barker bass!' They will, however, take notice of the Barker bass regardless of what they're hearing or not hearing. It is not conventional looking.

I don't want to get into a flame war over the fourth point, but $3,000 is an awful lot of money for most full time bassists. And there are many more bassists out there who are excellent passionate musicians who don't rely on their playing to feed the family than there are that do. The main idea that I was trying to get across is that you have relatively few working bassists out there who can afford to spend several thousand dollars for a unique (and some might say novelty) instrument, and there are many, many great even radically great sounding instruments in the boutique market. So, as a professional bass player, with all of these choices, the real reason to choose a Barker is number 1 - you're more comfortable with an upright neck, and you can afford it. And there is nothing wrong with that...

Regardless of how much you love these Barkers, and how great you think they sound, you have to admit that they are not for everyone. The great guitarist Paul Galbraith had an 8-string guitar custom made for him that has fanned frets and an end-pin which sits on a resonating box (held cello style). It is a magnificent sounding instrument and you would think that every classical guitarist would want to have one after hearing it, but again, it isn't everybody's cup of tea. This thread started with the question 'What's the point and who would play one?' I only wanted to bring the focus back to that original question. I hope I haven't offended anyone in the process.

[pointbass]

Mantleclock, no offense taken whatsoever You make some excellent points .....

And yes, I agree, these basses are definitely not for everyone. I would venture to go so far as to say that they have a very limited market appeal. As much as I like my B1 fretless 5, my main bass is a 7 string FBB with a fretless 6 FBB as it's primary backup.

I agree with you that the cash-poor working pro bassist would no more buy a Barker than he/she would a Fodera or Alembic. So that distinction has less to do with the bass design than it has to do with the value of the axe. $3k-$4K and up is big coin, regardless of the builder.

However, unless I'm seriously mistaken (a situation that, according to Mrs. PointBass, happens every single day ), the average Barker owner is either a full-time pro or a serious semi-pro. So towards the question of who plays a Barker, the current roster indicates the average owner to be comprised of professional-level players.

Sure, the composite average pro bassist likely plays a Fender or other fender-esque instrument ... there are reasons that it is the industry standard. And that guy/gal would likely not spend big nickles on any boutique bass .....

[yodedude2]

a quick comment on the 'novelty' comment

my barker b1 is my 'stage' bass, but it's also the first bass i reach for if i'm going to jam for fun, play a gig, do some recording, etc. 'novelty' for me now means having a bass that i have to wear--what an inconvenience!

so i suppose what is a novelty for some is the norm for others....

i agree with the idea that a barker bass is not for everyone--i know some bass manufacturers want their instruments to be for everyone, but truly this can never be. either way, i don't care about what is right for everyone, i want what is right for me.

later, ron

Originally Posted by mantelclock

pointbass,

If I understand correctly, you more or less agree with the first three points in my summary. I brought up points 2 and 3 because they are legitimate concerns of some players. As far as gear gawking goes, only unusual looking instruments will draw the average person's attention. I don't consider bass players to be average people, and Joe Blow's non bass playing friends in the audience are not likely to say 'Wow, is that a Sadowsky Metro that dude's playing?' They're equally unlikely to say 'Man I just cannot believe the sustain on that Barker bass!' They will, however, take notice of the Barker bass regardless of what they're hearing or not hearing. It is not conventional looking.

I don't want to get into a flame war over the fourth point, but $3,000 is an awful lot of money for most full time bassists. And there are many more bassists out there who are excellent passionate musicians who don't rely on their playing to feed the family than there are that do. The main idea that I was trying to get across is that you have relatively few working bassists out there who can afford to spend several thousand dollars for a unique (and some might say novelty) instrument, and there are many, many great even radically great sounding instruments in the boutique market. So, as a professional bass player, with all of these choices, the real reason to choose a Barker is number 1 - you're more comfortable with an upright neck, and you can afford it. And there is nothing wrong with that...

Regardless of how much you love these Barkers, and how great you think they sound, you have to admit that they are not for everyone. The great guitarist Paul Galbraith had an 8-string guitar custom made for him that has fanned frets and an end-pin which sits on a resonating box (held cello style). It is a magnificent sounding instrument and you would think that every classical guitarist would want to have one after hearing it, but again, it isn't everybody's cup of tea. This thread started with the question 'What's the point and who would play one?' I only wanted to bring the focus back to that original question. I hope I haven't offended anyone in the process.

[mantelclock]

Originally Posted by mantelclock

(and some might say novelty)

Notice that I parenthetically said 'some might'. I was giving reasons for why some people might not want to buy one. Obviously, anyone who buys and plays one does not look at it as a $3,000 novelty. I have a Guild Ashbory fretless that I use on gigs occasionally and in jams frequently. It is easy to transport, sounds great, and looks totally cool. As much as I like this bass, to most people, I'd confess that it is somewhat of a novelty, but for a couple hundred bucks, who cares.

Now, my Epiphone AirScreamer and Mojo Jojo guitars - those are novelties

[yodedude2]

Originally Posted by mantelclock

<snip> I have a Guild Ashbory fretless that I use on gigs occasionally and in jams frequently. It is easy to transport, sounds great, and looks totally cool. <end>

back off point: a friend of mine wanted to put together a band with electric mandolin, guild ashbory bass (i.e. me), and a flying vee pee wee. how cool would that be? nothing ever came of it, but we are still friends.

speaking of money, novelty, and market demand, have you cast one eye over at the fodera/value thread?

why are Foderas so expensive?

everyone else has.... later, ron

[mantelclock]

Originally Posted by yodedude2

electric mandolin, guild ashbory bass (i.e. me), and a flying vee pee wee.

Hey Ron.
Now I know where you're at Sounds like a kool kombo, although those vee pee wee's don't do much for me. Come to think of it, full size V's don't thrill me either.

I haven't paid much attention to the Fodera threads. Fodera's and Sadowsky's, etc. are very very good basses. With a bass of that quality, what you're paying for is that incremental improvement in sound and attention to detail that you don't get out of a mass produced instrument. The analogy would be a comparison between a top of the line conservatory violin and a hand made professional instrument. The proof is in the playing (I've played violin for 40 years). The form is the same, but it's the nuance that you pay for. Another apt analogy would be comparing a 25 lb bicycle to a 16 lb bike. They'll both get you where you're going, they both look basically the same, but the price tags are not even close. To the casual rider, it's not worth it.

So, how does all of this rambling relate to the current thread? With Fodera's, and Sadowsky's you're paying for subtle differences in design and construction, and if you notice those differences, and they make a difference in your performance, then you'll be willing to pay whatever the market rate is. If you don't notice the difference, then you might be tempted to argue that your collection of SX's is just fine and that anyone would be nuts to pay more for a bass. The Barker, from what I have seen, is quite radically different from conventional basses, so it shouldn't take a leap of faith to figure out how it might significantly improve a player's comfort and performance, and if it does, then the same reason why someone is willing to pay $$$ and wait six months for a Fodera would be valid for a Barker.

And while I've got your attention, let me return to my first post in this thread where I said that I thought the most comfortable position to hold a bass, in theory, would be vertically. If you try this simple test, you'll see why you might swear by your Barker if you have one, and why you're at least intrigued by the idea of one if you don't. Here is the test: Hold your left arm out in front of your body with your elbow resting against your pelvis. Hold it there for one minute with your palm flat, your thumb pointing to the left and your fingers pointing towards the ceiling. (tick, tick, tick) Now, keeping your arm bent at the same angle, relax, and rotate your forearm to the right. That is essentially the difference between playing a horizontally oriented bass and a vertical bass.

Lee, do I get a free bass for that one?

[GW in Ohio]

Originally Posted by hertzdem

look in the mirror,fellas,all for one and one for all! prove i'm wrong,J THE St, BARKER MILLIONS, you guys call attention to my remarks,by rallying arround each other"look what he said now"....etc.-i just stated i don't dig the barker bass-idea,price,sound,what it's supposed to replace(don't say it's not)-that shouldn't matter to anyone who does-it's just one person's opinion-i'm not badrapping anyone here-but, look who is-all of you-frankly,i think no response to anyone's views is the way to go-you won't change mine & i won't change yours-and i don't need the heir to my fortune to post this for me-----whoa!

hertzdem: I bought a B2 prototype from Lee Barker in December. He sold four of these prototypes on eBay. I got it for $1,000.00. After playing it for a while, I decided it wasn't for me, and that I preferred my Ibanez electric bass and my Shen double bass.

But a curious thing happened when I took the B2 out this week and started playing it........I couldn't stop. I adjusted the height of the B2 upward by 4-5 inches and that obviously made a tremendous difference.

I understand your antipathy toward Barker basses, because I felt the same way. But I've come 180 degrees in my opinion. It's obvious when you play a Barker that Lee has put a lot of craftsmanship and artistry into each one.

Anyway, I hope you stick around; yours is an interesting point of view.

[GW in Ohio]

Originally Posted by hertzdem

what if someone wanted this instrument,but,had to draw the line(financially)as to how aesthetically beautiful he could go with it? would mr. barker build an instrument to his requirements and budget?less of the (admittedlyharsh)"fancy coffeetable" aspect and more of the actual" meat&potatoes" portion of what this thing is all about-what would it have to offer ,soundwise, without the premium giftwrap?

The 4 B2 prototypes that Lee Barker put up for sale on eBay last December are an example of a bass that doesn't have the aesthetic refinement of Lee's production models, but does have all the playability and sound quality.

These B2s were not as polished or finished (i.e., as beautiful) as the earlier B1s, or the Brio, but they played just as well. The B2 prototypes might have had some imperfections in the wood that were purely aesthetic, but whatever "imperfections" there were didn't affect the sound.

And the price of one of these B2 prototypes was less than half of what you'd pay for a B1 or a Brio.

[Lee Barker]

Lee, do I get a free bass for that one? [/quote]

Yeah, I was thinking maybe about one of these:

www.bogdonmusic.com



Lee

[mantelclock]

Thanks! I'll be singing 'Wait a minute Mr. Postman' every day...

[Phalex]

Originally Posted by Lee Barker

Lee, do I get a free bass for that one?

Yeah, I was thinking maybe about one of these:

www.bogdonmusic.com



Lee[/quote]

Hey Lee! I have one of the ultra low tech box's and it's pretty fabulous! After I came to see you in beautiful Redmond OR, I was very intrigued by the vertical bass. New roofs, car repair, and the general malaise of the economy here in Michigan have put my Barker order on hold for a while, but I'm getting a lot more comfortable with the vertical neck orientation.

This is us doing a rousing rendition of "Man In The Box" swing style, on the box. I expect the thing to fall apart at the seams at any given moment, but it really does sound sweet.



Still saving my pennies...........

[Lee Barker]

Hey Alex, good to hear from you. Durability is a great concern here at the R and D division of Barker Musical Instruments International, and of course we have Stealth Shoppers all over the world buying the competition so we can run it up the flag pole, drive it hard a few laps, run it through the TSA scanner and then try it with ranch dressing.

Your concern about "falling apart at the seams" is well placed. We've fast forwarded through that scenario using computer modeling and found that, with an application of some high tech adhesives, some select domestic hardwoods, some high quality hardware, a set of four actual strings, top notch electronics and some other stuff and we can help that bass be something slightly more than it is now. The Barker nameplate would be free, but there would be a slight charge for the other labor and materials.

Let's hope for a giant upswing in the Michigan economy real soon.

Take care, and come back soon. I really enjoyed your roadtest music on all the Barkers that were hangin' around here.

There is a YouTube bit with a solo on the BoxBass, and it's very good, but I bet you could whup him at it. Chops + charm = standing ovation. Or, in my case, walking ovation.

Kindly,

Lee

[Phalex]

Yeah, that whole 4 strings thing would seem to be an advantage!!


I've got my Barker specs all figured out. It'll probably run me $10K but it'll be sweeeeet.

I'll stop chewing up your band width now!

Take care.