Church musicians

[cb56]

Maybe it's because if he started a new thread on the same subject somebody would come along and say "do a search"?

[kenlacam]

I cut my teeth in church, learned to play the bass and organ. I am thankful for that experience, as I have played for many years in church before I left it altogether. It was definitely an interesting experience, to say the least.

[cb56]

anyway to joebar. I see where you are coming from (no hate from me) I agree that we should always bring our best efforts to the praise and worship team. I am fortunate to play on two pretty good worship teams one at my church and one at a church I visit every couple of months. (kind of my home away from home)
I do think we have to distinguish between "worship" and "performance". There are two things we have to consider.
1: Someone else's best effort might not be on par with ours, but they have a heart for worship. My view is that I should work with those people.In fact I would rather work with that person than a more talented person who really doesn't want to be there or is just doing it as a job. IMO
2: We have to face the fact that the low numbers of really good players has alot to do with the fact that some (maybe alot) of players would rather be out making dollars with their talents than storing up their treasure in heaven where moths and rust do not destroy. Once again a matter of where their heart is at.
My sister is a member of the salvation army and at her church they have two cornet players and a squeeze box for their music. That's it! But I'm sure God is pleased with their music.

[jacohead]

What happens when a really bad guitarist gets picked over an amazing guitarist because the bad guitarist is a member of the church and has been around since forever and is well known. This happend at a church I attended. The bad guitarist sounds pretty terrible and it shows every sunday. Shouldnt they have put the best man in for the position ?

[finalrequiem]

Joebar, if you are ever in Oklahoma City let me know and I'll have you come to our church for a service. The bar is very high, musically AND spiritually. Preparation and excellence are expected and demanded but a right spirit is even more so. I'm not bragging in any way, shape, or form but (and this only really applies to "believers") but you should WANT to bring nothing but the best to your creator and savior. Not only that, but music opens people up to what's going on in the service. If the musicians and singers have bad attitudes and are unprepared it WILL affect people in the congregation. Notice though, I didn't say anything about the music having to be Grammy quality. It needs to be the BEST it can possibly be though. There is no excuse for not giving your best. YMMV, blah, blah...

[cb56]

IMO, they should have worked them both in somehow.
The one church I play at every other month has 7 bass players. Most of them better than me. But I still get to play every other month. If I were a member there I would probably play a bit more often.

[namuxtree]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

You know, I've been in a situation where the church emphasized musical excellence to the point where neither I (the leader) nor the band was really able to worship. Now the band had been introduced to Christianity that way... I wasn't. Of course, most of the band were professionals who probably wouldn't be in the building otherwise... I ended up being fired because I refused to keep the complexity at a level where we couldn't worship. After all, what's the purpose of church if not worship?

Anyway, I'm now leading in a church where they have a slightly lower musical standard, and it's a great deal better for me. I like to be able to shift the mechanics of playing into the background and just worship. The funny thing? This band grooves better and sounds more powerful (IMHO), and they're all amateurs! It's interesting how God works.

For what it's worth, I do think that it's our responsibility to present God our best offering, but if our offering of praise isn't sufficient, no offering of musical complexity is going to make up for it.

Bottom line- people should never come to church for the music, IMHO. If that's what brings them initially, awesome. But if you keep going week after week just to hear some incredible band and keep getting annoyed by that annoying talking in the middle, I think priorities are out of whack. As musicians, we just have to be really in tune with God and really know what's going to draw others into worship, and what will detract from it.

+100000000000000000000000

[capnsandwich]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

You know, I've been in a situation where the church emphasized musical excellence to the point where neither I (the leader) nor the band was really able to worship. Now the band had been introduced to Christianity that way... I wasn't. Of course, most of the band were professionals who probably wouldn't be in the building otherwise... I ended up being fired because I refused to keep the complexity at a level where we couldn't worship. After all, what's the purpose of church if not worship?

Anyway, I'm now leading in a church where they have a slightly lower musical standard, and it's a great deal better for me. I like to be able to shift the mechanics of playing into the background and just worship. The funny thing? This band grooves better and sounds more powerful (IMHO), and they're all amateurs! It's interesting how God works.

For what it's worth, I do think that it's our responsibility to present God our best offering, but if our offering of praise isn't sufficient, no offering of musical complexity is going to make up for it.

Bottom line- people should never come to church for the music, IMHO. If that's what brings them initially, awesome. But if you keep going week after week just to hear some incredible band and keep getting annoyed by that annoying talking in the middle, I think priorities are out of whack. As musicians, we just have to be really in tune with God and really know what's going to draw others into worship, and what will detract from it.

I dig that!

I'm in a situation where I live 45 minutes away from the church I go to and am the only bassist currently there. I don't get paid nor do I get any perks of any kind. that's not what I do it for but I'm not opposed to it if it was ever offered. At least it would help on gas.

My point is that I find myself really struggling at times with the mediocrity when it comes to "giving our all" in music. I know we're there to worship and I know we're NOT there to rock out. I have several side projects for that. I play church because it's my calling right now, that's it. I do, however, believe that there is some sort of responsibility to strive to get better, which is something that my church lacks. The WT gets together once a month for practice, most of the time I'm the first one there and everyone else is late, even the WL. We sit around and wait for the WL to get her stuff together and start practice, which takes 20-30 minutes. Then we go over a few new songs in which I'm the one usually showing her how to play the songs, transposing them and transcribing them for her. I'm not opposed to these things, meaning the transposing and transcribing, but I am opposed to driving 45 minutes to start practice a half hour late only to go over songs I already know and then drive 45 minutes home and have to get up a 3 a.m. for work. I believe that if you're going to be a part of the worship team then you need to SET AN EXAMPLE, not follow suit with the rest of the congregation. The WL shows up 15 minutes before church starts and there's no sound check. I'm there at 9:30, which is what time I need to be there. We've had this conversation before with the entire team but it never pans out. No one ever takes it seriously and I'm ready to drop out and star somewhere else. I know I have a lot of say-so in my church as far as how the music is to be played and such but I think I need a more stable and structured team.

So if a lower standard means that there's also a lack of commitment and a lack of a drive to strive for excellence then I don't agree with the above statement but I know that we're not there to be just musicians. We're there to lead worshipers. That means there's also a certain amount of expectations that we, as musicians, need to meet. A simple desire to get better is all that's needed, not an attitude of "Let's just hurry up and get this over with," mentality. That's what I see in my church too many times.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by capnsandwich

I dig that!

I'm in a situation where I live 45 minutes away from the church I go to and am the only bassist currently there. I don't get paid nor do I get any perks of any kind. that's not what I do it for but I'm not opposed to it if it was ever offered. At least it would help on gas.

My point is that I find myself really struggling at times with the mediocrity when it comes to "giving our all" in music. I know we're there to worship and I know we're NOT there to rock out. I have several side projects for that. I play church because it's my calling right now, that's it. I do, however, believe that there is some sort of responsibility to strive to get better, which is something that my church lacks. The WT gets together once a month for practice, most of the time I'm the first one there and everyone else is late, even the WL. We sit around and wait for the WL to get her stuff together and start practice, which takes 20-30 minutes. Then we go over a few new songs in which I'm the one usually showing her how to play the songs, transposing them and transcribing them for her. I'm not opposed to these things, meaning the transposing and transcribing, but I am opposed to driving 45 minutes to start practice a half hour late only to go over songs I already know and then drive 45 minutes home and have to get up a 3 a.m. for work. I believe that if you're going to be a part of the worship team then you need to SET AN EXAMPLE, not follow suit with the rest of the congregation. The WL shows up 15 minutes before church starts and there's no sound check. I'm there at 9:30, which is what time I need to be there. We've had this conversation before with the entire team but it never pans out. No one ever takes it seriously and I'm ready to drop out and star somewhere else. I know I have a lot of say-so in my church as far as how the music is to be played and such but I think I need a more stable and structured team.

So if a lower standard means that there's also a lack of commitment and a lack of a drive to strive for excellence then I don't agree with the above statement but I know that we're not there to be just musicians. We're there to lead worshipers. That means there's also a certain amount of expectations that we, as musicians, need to meet. A simple desire to get better is all that's needed, not an attitude of "Let's just hurry up and get this over with," mentality. That's what I see in my church too many times.

I like your work ethic. I've been involved in worship teams in one capacity or another (drums, vocals, bass, leader) for around 8-9 years. In order to get better at something you have to spend the time. When mid-week rehearsal became mandatory, I think we really started to improve. We would let students off the hook because of studies etc. but it was expected that everybody playing on Sunday came on Thursday night for 1.5 to 2 hr rehearsal.

We would ALSO show up at least 1.5 hrs before the service to run through everything at least once prior to worship. It was understood that (the weeks you were on) worship team participation would require about 4-5 hrs a week of your time (including the service), not including individual practice. For summer we scaled back and would forego mid-week practice to give folks a break, but still require people to be at church ready to rehearse 2 hrs before the service started. Many other ministries take a summer break, not the worship team!

Just my opinion but I don't think it's possible for a worship team to really improve together unless they're practicing together during the week as well. It's the same with the secular band I'm in. We faithfully rehearse for 3 hrs every single week (except for commitments we can't get out of like work or family).

The mid-week practice is the "eating your vegetables" part where we discuss tempos, endings, harmonies, transitions, chords etc. Then the run-through on Sunday morning is to become more familiar with the song so that we can actually lead worship while singing and playing.

Cap'n, you're on the right track. Maybe you should take on more responsibility with your team? Your WL may get the point if when they come in 15 mins before the service, you're just finishing up leading a rehearsal with the team.

[capnsandwich]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Cap'n, you're on the right track. Maybe you should take on more responsibility with your team? Your WL may get the point if when they come in 15 mins before the service, you're just finishing up leading a rehearsal with the team.

I tried this at the meeting we had. I actually asked the WL if I could take on some of the music director duties that were on her shoulders. Then a year later we had another meeting that pretty much told me that she had no idea that I ever asked her that. Then it became some sort of "Matt's too hard on us and expects too much," kind of meeting. I felt I needed to bring my lawyer with me at that one. Nothing was accomplished and things just got worse from there. It's an uphill battle and my climbing boots are worn out. I told them that from now on I'm "just a bass player" and wanted nothing to do with the leadership of that team, even though I help her out and still transpose and transcribe for her. I simply do what I need to do and nothing else. I can't carry anyone on the team, especially when they need to learn to walk on their own. I stepped down for about a month but there was no bassist for a month and the worship did lack. Now we're having problems with drummers not showing up.

[canadian_man_44]

My father likes to quote in Psalms where it is says, "Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise." I believe, the same as him, that when you're playing in Church you should do it to the best of your ability. I wouldn't play in Church if I wasn't committed to playing my best and getting better all the time....and I've been playing for 23 years. I'm skilled but I'm always trying to improve.
I'm lucky enough to be part of a Church Praise and Worship team that is amazing. We play a little bit of the old stuff with a lot of the new. It just doesn't get boring. The leader is always showing up with new stuff that we practice for a few weeks before bringing into a service. This is definitely the tightest band I've ever played with and I'm loving it.

[capnsandwich]

Originally Posted by canadian_man_44

My father likes to quote in Psalms where it is says, "Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise." I believe, the same as him, that when you're playing in Church you should do it to the best of your ability. I wouldn't play in Church if I wasn't committed to playing my best and getting better all the time....and I've been playing for 23 years. I'm skilled but I'm always trying to improve.
I'm lucky enough to be part of a Church Praise and Worship team that is amazing. We play a little bit of the old stuff with a lot of the new. It just doesn't get boring. The leader is always showing up with new stuff that we practice for a few weeks before bringing into a service. This is definitely the tightest band I've ever played with and I'm loving it.

You're a blessed man.

[elavate7]

Originally Posted by T-Funk

Great post!

I have played in Church on and off for over 20 years. During that time, the present level of a person's musicianship has never been too much of a concern to me as long as the person had an understanding of the basics and did not "ruin" the songs. However, a person's devotion to God and his or her level of commitment to practice were two of the most important factors.

Some of the most horrid experiences I had while playing in Church were with musicians who treated the opportunity as a "gig", but did not care about the things of God in their personal lives and/or did not feel the need to practice regularly.

Also, I believe we need to separate the musicianship expectations of the average Sunday morning Church band, in which most cases the musicians are playing for the love of God and the musical setting is free, and the professional Church or Christian band, in which musical setting is not free and/or the musicians are paid.

Not everyone who plays in the average Sunday morning Church band is, or has the talent to become, a professional musician. However, if the person is using his or her musical abilities 100% from the heart to glorify God, I believe the Lord is very well pleased.

Ted

Too may church musicians call it a "GIG" when its ministry instead. i am blessed to play at a church that encourages worship through playing and letting God use us. we do all different kinds of gospel and christion music, so the diversity is there. i also love how our band repects and covers each other when needed. we are like one happy family

[joebar]

Originally Posted by jacohead

What happens when a really bad guitarist gets picked over an amazing guitarist because the bad guitarist is a member of the church and has been around since forever and is well known. This happend at a church I attended. The bad guitarist sounds pretty terrible and it shows every sunday. Shouldnt they have put the best man in for the position ?

like i said- politics.
quite often you will see family members chosen over other obvious candidates for positions in the ministry and that right there is enough to make me want to pack it in.

there is always two ways you can look at these types of circumstances in churches:

1 -god doesn't think i am ready to be a part of the ministry yet therefore i need to develop patience, longsuffering and discipline before i can go further. (even tho i am the better musician)
2-the other person got the job because he could be humbler, a bigger giver , etc. (certainly not based on his/ her talents [we are talking about the lesser player in the previous example here]).
or...
3-maybe God isn't promoting anybody in this situation at all. maybe his hands are truly tied because of man's corrupt heart motives?

i have seen these things arise countless times over the years and have come to the conclusion that as long as there are politics abounding within the organization, the right people will continuously be passed up for other less qualified ones based on birthright etc.

look at some of the bigger ministries and you will see that family members always seem to rise thru the ranks and be promoted over other people.

it's funny because i know that God gave me an amazing gift and when i play the bass, his anointing is on that gift wherever and whenever i go.
even people say that there is an untangible something when i play and i know it his Him on me when i play; nothing i do.
i have never prostituted that anointing either.

but I have put in a great deal of preparation and sensitivity and knowledge into playing the best i can before him. He helps those who help themselves...

for many years i really sincerely believed that i was to be a bassist for use in P & W teams; i went thru many years of denial believing that when it was apparently obvious that those dreams would never come to pass due to these obstacles.

i am too far gone in indifference to organized churches to ever be of any good in that setting again; my heart broke years ago.

i figure that they lost a good thing when i walked away; i didn't play for almost ten years due to the frustration and disappointment.

now i am playing with secular musicians and i think that things have gone full circle. i don't sense the condemnation that i once felt in the past, mind you i distance myself from people who may try to persuade me to keep a closed mind on these subjects. it is wonderful to be able to think objectively nowadays and not be under condemnation of other sheep.

[cb56]

IMO, worry less about what people say, think, do....
not easy I know.