Church musicians

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by OpaqueBass

Wow. I've been reading this thread off and on since it's been around.

It's funny, I've been thinking a lot of the same things over the last few months. I've been playing in my church since I first started playing bass. I think within my first two weeks of having a bass, I played at my youth group (I hope nobody has any form of recording of that...)

I've come so far as a musician since then. The first Wed. night I played, I put sticky notes on the neck because I didn't know any of the notes...

Now, I don't even have to think about what I'm playing. Unless I'm trying to push the envelope.

Sometimes people say, "why don't you sing?" I do sing, sometimes; but I think the view of worship in general has been so contorted in today's society. I mean, isn't worship mainly about our actions? Not repeated words sung by a large group of people. I mean, I see how the music is worship. It's about using our talents/blessings/lives to glorify God. For me, I worship by playing bass. I may not sing, but I'm going to play my bass like never before. There have been times that the spirit has just flowed; and I played things that I could never remember or play again. I think I even blacked out once... just mentally.

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say. It's just that I've just seen God bless me in so many different ways as far as music goes. The acquisition of my current bass, and the one that's on it's way shows that so amazingly IMO. Sometimes I take His blessings for granted, sometimes I don't realize them right away; but when I do... I'm rendered pretty much speechless.

I honestly don't think that I could play music if it wasn't to glorify Him. Whenever I jam with secular bands, I walk away asking myself "what was the point of that?" I get nothing out of it. All I did was attempt to glorify myself. I need/deserve none. God, however, deserves it all.

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by ii-v

I guess I see things differently. I have no problem jamming in a secular setting. I used to do accounting. Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God. If I fight fires is it essential that I do it in a spirit of worship and not actually concentrate on the training, or can I do both. I think that if my intention is service of God and mankind it really does not matter what I do. I believe I am absolutely free in Christ to do so. So unless people can literally do everything in a "non-secular" element I think they will leave the situation believing there is no point. But if you believe Christ has freed you to pursue all things then it is far less concerning about whether music is played for its cool chord progression or for revival. But in both situations you can trust God is glorified if your motive is pure. Now I understand there are limitations to this analogy, freedom gives me responsibility. In that light I cannot choose something deemed sinful by God as an honest holy pursuit. I am free to choose that which is sinful, but that does not mean God is necessarily glorified and that I am free from consequence. I think it does mean that if my purpose is to relate to God (and abstain from sinful behavior), even over an incredible song with seemingly pointless lyrics, I can still approach this music in a pure light. Music always gets the short end of the stick. A carwasher can glorify God by washing a Mercedes, owned by, a NON CHRISTIAN, but a musician cannot by playing a secular song. Truly I am not sure typing on TB is glorifying God, but my intentions and motives are kindhearted. When we post outside of the christian topics on this board are we in the wrong by not glorifying God at that particular moment. I hope this does not seem as a slam. I intend it to be a different point of view, that is all. I agree with one thiong you said wholeheartedly, "for me, I worship by playing my bass."

ii-v, (great name btw!)

Hey, thanks for your positive contributions!

Keep up the worship!!

[puff father]

This is an awesome thread guys. I keep expecting the politically correct police to rush in and say "all right, break it up!"

Lots of good stuff here. Lots of expression of stuff I have been thinking and praying about myself. From the simplest song to the most difficult, having your heart in it is the thing. When God's Spirit shows up it's just like nothing else. Playing secular music can be fun too but when God shows up during worship..., the world has nothing to compare to that.

[Matt Call]

As I'm rereading my post, I'm thinking that it may have come across differently than I meant.

I love playing music - secular or not. I view secular music differently that some people do I think. I definitely don't limit myself to listening only to christian music. However, I do draw the line at certain points.

I have no problem jamming/rocking out with a secular band; but as far as being a permanent bassist... I'm pretty hesitant. If I were to take a position, I'd definitely have to analyze it and make sure that it's a good situation to be in as far as the overall message their trying to portray. My last band played more mainstream, secular if you will, music; but we were all Christians and our ultimate goal was to minister to people (whether other bands on tour, fans, producers, etc.). We weren't necesarily vocal about our faith onstage; but behind the scenes: we meant business.

What I mainly meant by my statement was that when I play with people in a non-ministry setting, I just don't enjoy it as much. The spirit doesn't move, and people are only trying to uplift themselves and recieve glory from others. I personally could care less if people think I'm a good bass player or not (though I like to think I'm a'ight), I just want them to see my heart and the work and effort that I put into my music. From there maybe a conversation will start...

[tbone0813]

Originally Posted by Todd Johnson

OpaqueBass,

Hey, keep up the good work......keep improving as a musician...it's an endless process.

I appreciate your positive contributions!!

One thought: Sometimes we'll be in a "jam" etc....some kind of secular situation....Heck, I play in jazz clubs all the time....but my heart and my efforts are to please God with ALL that I do.....I fall short....but that's what I'm shooting for. I have to focus on the fact that we're called to be "salt and light"......

When you're in one of those "secular band" situations pray for an opportunity to share the gospel with those that are lost....pray for them on the way to the session....while you're there....when you're on the way home. Hopefully they'll notice "Christ's Light" shining from you.....you'll be surprised at the opportunity's that God will send your way.

Sometimes it's just an opportunity to "love" and "serve" others. That'll seperate you and make you different right there!!

Anyway....that's my 2 cents worth....and my experience FWIW.

Keep making a joyful sound!!

Thanks for sharing this Todd. I try to please God in everything I do especially playing music. I too fall shory on a consistent basis, but I know that he is there to a). forgive me, and b). pick me up.

Yesterday at church was probably the best song service we have had. There is no doubt that wew were letting the Holy Spirit move in us. We struggle as a church band most of the time due to the lack of experience from all the musicians. It gets frustrating at times where I just want to walk out. I dont, because I can't glorify God if I do, and that is the point of me playing the bass. I know it will all come together in time, and after yesterday I think everyone knows that now.

[Torch7]

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

[Matt Call]

Originally Posted by Torch7

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

I'm going to sum up my thoughts on this with one word...

Word.

[elwood]

Originally Posted by Torch7

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

Pursuing a career in the entertainment industry is incredibly dangerous, spiritually, with all the temptations and the opportunities to compromise your faith. I don’t think it’s a wise way to go if you can do anything else. Or even if you can’t.

I remember reading about some woman many years ago who supposedly got saved. She was a stripper, so afterward she became a “stripper for Christ”. Talk about ignorance gone to seed. I thought it was hilarious; I wasn’t saved at the time, but it shows your examples aren't really as extreme as they sound.

[ii-v]

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.

Originally Posted by Torch7

I think some people approach music as a "Musical Levite", (I didn't know what else it could be called) Myself being included I only listen to and play Christian Music.... but thats just me, I don't condem or look down my nose at others who choose to play secular music.

However I do think there should be limits placed on our liberty as musicians, me playing or listening to an R. Kelly song would be just tooo confusing to some of my students, most of what he talks about contradicts what I teach on Wednesday nights and Sunday mornings, and would defile my mind as a Christian so I abstain. The word of God clearly states that our liberties, should be at the expense of other believers.

I wholeheartedly agree with ii-v on the point that we cannot live apart from the secular world, however; we do have to view lifestyle choices in the light of God's word. There is an obvious difference if I am an Christian who works in an accounting office, than If I am a Christian who works in Strip Club.

I know these seem to be extreme examples but with the demographic that I minister to these examples arent extreme at all.

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by ii-v

So is the stripper the musician in your analogy. I could not figure out where you were going with that. That is kind of what I meant by music gets the short end of the stick. It seems you jumped ship on talking about music and linked music with stripping. I could site examples of music that I should not play and you would agree with every one of them. But, my post was tempered with phrases like responsibility and abstaining from sin, therefore, I don't find it necessary to talk about music I should not play. Please let me know if I am misinterpreting your post. On the other hand I completely agree with everything else in your post. I do see the accountant being different from the stripper, but I do not follow the logic of it being in this discussion. The stripper to me serves as a "strawman argument".

As far as your choice to play and listen to christian music, I think that is fantastic.

He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.

[barthanatos]

Like many have said, great discussion. A couple of things to add:

I'm really digging on the concept right now about how preparing to lead others to worship is worship in and of itself. So for me, that is where I get my "dose" of worship, so to speak (not that we can't worship at all times). During the worship service, I'm focusing on playing my best - honoring God by fulfilling my role as a musician, without so much trying to "get something out of it".

It's interesting to me that I should run across this thread because I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently, after reading the book Effortlesss Mastery, by Kenny Werner. It's not a Christian book, and has a lot of ambiguous spirituality in it (and to be honest, some heretical notions), but it makes some excellent points as well, and for me was very helpful in "unlocking" musical ability. It deals a lot with removing inhibitions in our approach to music, something that I definitely needed.

Anyway, the other thing I wanted to do was give a couple of plugs for books that I can endorse without any spiritual reservations:

The Dynamics of Worship, James P. Gills, M.D.
Gills in this book examines the true meaning of worship in our lives, throughout our lives, and not just limited to the realm of segregational worship music. A great resource for any Christian musician.

At the Crossroads, Charlie Peacock
Peacock (you've probably heard of him) is a Christian music producer that has worked with many well-known CCM musicians, as well as being a musician himself. In his book he addresses the issue of CCM, it's relevance to Christians and the world, and spends a lot of time talking about having a "Kingdom perspective". He also talks about what is "Christian music", and whether that does/should apply to any music made by a Christian, or if it is just limited to music that directly praises God, or exhorts others to worship God. A must read!

[Torch7]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

He's just saying that there are some activities that may be alright for HIM, but might mislead those who look at him.

The Apostle Paul has this to say about eating foods that are seen as "unclean," which can be paralleled to activities that are seen as "unChristian":

Romans 20:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

So yeah, it's something to think about. Maybe you wouldn't be tempted by doing a secular activity, but if others looking at you as a Christian example might stumble by you doing what you do, you need to reconsider why you're doing it.

That's what I got out of his post, anyway.

Thanks Dkerwoodm;

That was exactly what I was saying in my post.

ii-v;
I mentioned the stripper and accountant merely because it was said.

Now because I wasn't a "christian" accountant, that is I did accounting for a "secular" company, did that mean I could not glorify God.

I had a similiar discussion on another website about playing secular music, and a believer was using that exact argument. I was merely adding a balance to your statement, that an accountant can glorify God while a stripper cannot. I hope I am not being too confusing.

I think music gets scrutinized more because, there is a particular power behind music, and us as musicians need to be responsible with this power we have at our disposal.

[elwood]

Barthanatos-
Those books just went on my must-have list. Thanks very much for posting that.

[barthanatos]

No problem. They're those kind of books that make you want to buy copies for all your friends and just give them away.

[ii7-V7]

This thread is bound for stickydom!

[ii-v]

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

[Matt Call]

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

[ii-v]

While I do not agree with honoring God in either location, I appreciate your response.

Originally Posted by OpaqueBass

The comparisons you guys are bringing up are reminding me of xxxchurch.com

If you haven't checked this out, it's a pretty cool organization. They're trying to take on the issue of pornography. I read an article about them in Relevant magazine a week or two ago. It talked about how they went to a huge porn convention, spreading their message. I think that takes a lot of guts. I mean, they're reaching people that probably wouldn't be otherwise reached. They've changed the lives of pornstars, addicts, execs., etc. How did they do it? By diving head first into the heart of the issue at hand.

I'm probably not in any place to comment on it; but I don't know if the stripper necessarily had to replace anything in the analogy. It seemed to me like it was more a sense of location (working in a business firm vs. strip club?). You can honor God, IMO, in either position. Obviously, it would be MUCH harder to do in a strip club; but still possible. It's the way that you use it.

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by ii-v

Rom. 14:13?

I still do not understand the comparison, but I do not think that I have to either. Here is why I don't get it.

In both jobs I spoke of sin is not a requirement, to be a stripper it (sin) is a requirement (according to christianity). That is why it through me off. Torch7 can say: "playing secular music is like stripping to my conscience".
I have no right to tell him to sin against his conscience. However, it would be in the wrong for him to say, "playing secular music is akin to stripping".

That said, he may not have meant either example I gave. The ex. I gave used an accountant and a musician. My question is which did the stripper replace in the analogy?

Great discussion, I enjoy the tone of each post, low key yet productive.

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.

[ii-v]

I totally agree about your point on situations. However, playing secular music does not require me to sin, stripping does. When putting together an analogy it is important to give apples to apples comparisons. His ex. in my view is an apple to orange. However, I agree that stripping and or strip clubs are reprehensible. If his logic follows we could insert world dictator (Hitler) in his example. And I just do not see the point in doing that, that's all. I guess explaining further to me is not going to help, my view is that it is unapplicable to what we are discussing, but given the right topic I think his outcome is completely right and the verses sited are very applicable.

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

You were using an accountant as an example of an activity that does not necessarily involve sin - as a counterpart to playing music. Your argument was that the "secular" activity does not detract from your personal ministry.

The example of the stripper was used similarly - but to illustrate the other side of the coin. Certain types of music and situations for a musician lend themselves more easily to a sinful lifestyle - and certainly can lead others to question your ministry.

Obviously, this likely wouldn't apply to you or most of the posters on this thread, but you can't deny that there are some musical situations that a Christian should not in good conscience be a part of - hence the "stripper" example.