Electric bass in jazz

[Shoehorn]

Hi Todd,

I had a question regarding playing electric bass in jazz. Since I've started taking playing jazz very seriously in the past 2 years I've had quite a number of people telling me I HAVE to learn how to play double bass to play jazz unless I'm playing fusion or jazzfunk. Almost all of the respected universities and colleges for studying jazz in Canada are bias towards the upright and make it very difficult to study on electric as a focus. I am interested in playing upright and have been practicing it for a several hours a day for the past 8 months but in that short time I'm already beginning to see that my real passion is the electric. I find it all sooo frustrating and I really don't know what to do at this point.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if it's really as neccessary as what everyone seems to be telling me to play upright if I want to be a jazz player and am I putting myself at a significant disadvantage if I choose to be the best electric player I can possibly become instead?

Sorry if this has been a little longwinded. I also just wanted to say your playing is such an inspiration!

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by Shoehorn

Hi Todd,

I had a question regarding playing electric bass in jazz. Since I've started taking playing jazz very seriously in the past 2 years I've had quite a number of people telling me I HAVE to learn how to play double bass to play jazz unless I'm playing fusion or jazzfunk. Almost all of the respected universities and colleges for studying jazz in Canada are bias towards the upright and make it very difficult to study on electric as a focus. I am interested in playing upright and have been practicing it for a several hours a day for the past 8 months but in that short time I'm already beginning to see that my real passion is the electric. I find it all sooo frustrating and I really don't know what to do at this point.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if it's really as neccessary as what everyone seems to be telling me to play upright if I want to be a jazz player and am I putting myself at a significant disadvantage if I choose to be the best electric player I can possibly become instead?

Sorry if this has been a little longwinded. I also just wanted to say your playing is such an inspiration!

Dear Shoehorn,

Man...I am SO sorry but I spaced this last month and missed your post and several others. I'm truly sorry....especially now that I've read your question.

Man, can I relate to this.....WOW!! You've come to the right place! Ha!

Here's what I'd like to do....I'd like you to email me at my home email address todd@toddjohnsonmusic.com and give me your phone number and I'll call you on my dime and we'll talk it all through. Cool?? Cool.......

But, the short answer is: You DO NOT have to play upright bass to play jazz. I've proven that....so has Steve Swallow and a bunch of other people.....AND....you DO NOT have to play electric to play fusion or jazz/funk. In "my" opinion this is just short sighted thinking. Jazz and jazz education considers itself "open minded" yet it's really the opposite. Anyway.....

Let me also say this: I LOVE THE UPRIGHT BASS. I LOVE the upright bass community. I'm a PROUD member of the ISB (International Society of Bassists). I played the UB for 7 years and loved it.....but like you I eventually found my voice and it was on electric bass.

Actually, I think learning upright AND electric is good for any serious career minded bass player. But for Colleges and Universities to say you have to play jazz on the upright is sad.

I don't understand why guys can't Major on electric and minor (so to speak) on Upright.....and.....vice versa. I think playing both instruments for EVERYONE is a good thing.

If electric players "have" to learn the upright.....then why don't upright players "have" to learn the electric.....especially since there is a TON more opportunities on electric??? Food for thought.....

I guess I just dislike the labels and the limitations place on us by short sighted people.

Anyway.....now I'm going off..........Ha!!

The bottom line for me..... BECOME A GREAT MUSICIAN AND YOU CAN PLAY WHATEVER YOU WANT!!

SO......please send me your number and I'll gladly talk you through this OK?

Again.....my apologies for spacing on your thoughtful post. Thanks for your patience with me....

Humbly,

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Todd Johnson

I eventually found my voice and it was on electric bass.

BECOME A GREAT MUSICIAN AND YOU CAN PLAY WHATEVER YOU WANT!!

Pretty much says it all right there. If thats' your voice, then that's your voice. You will have to get used to (as all of us do) of any number of folks NOT hearing your voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble.


I always tend to ask this question when these discussions come up and it doesn't really get answered so I'll try again. There are any number of cats out there who double and are VERY successful musicians - John Pat, James Genus, Christian McBride etc etc - but they themselves make a specific choice that they will play upright with some music and electric with some music. Now, they play BOTH axes. An don their records they can play whatever the hell instrument they want on whatever the hell tune they want, right? And since they all do a wide variety of music and play both instruments, I wouldn't assume that they would be classed as "short sighted" or "close minded", right?

So if JP, Chris, James et al decide that on some music the SOUND that they are looking for is upright and are not being ss/cm, why would you think that that was the reason that someone else made the same decision?

[azureblue]

Jazz on the upright.. I have played music for over 50 years and jazz & R&B on 40 of that, on the electric bass. Yet the local jazz police will not accept what I do because I don't play upright.. Even though I can play the heads from Donna Lee on down, the changes, solo, chart, read both clefs & transpose for the horns.... Go figure...

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by azureblue

Yet the local jazz police will not accept what I do because I don't play upright.. Go figure...

So what rank does John Patittucci have in the local jazz police? Is he like a sergeant or a lieutenant or what?

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Pretty much says it all right there. If thats' your voice, then that's your voice. You will have to get used to (as all of us do) of any number of folks NOT hearing your voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble.


I always tend to ask this question when these discussions come up and it doesn't really get answered so I'll try again. There are any number of cats out there who double and are VERY successful musicians - John Pat, James Genus, Christian McBride etc etc - but they themselves make a specific choice that they will play upright with some music and electric with some music. Now, they play BOTH axes. And on their records they can play whatever the hell instrument they want on whatever the hell tune they want, right? And since they all do a wide variety of music and play both instruments, I wouldn't assume that they would be classed as "short sighted" or "close minded", right?

So if JP, Chris, James et al decide that on some music the SOUND that they are looking for is upright and are not being ss/cm, why would you think that that was the reason that someone else made the same decision?

HI Ed,

Actually, you and I are in complete agreement.....Those great musicians you mentioned are NOT short sighted or close minded!! NOT EVEN!! JP, Chris, James etc. should, can and have played whatever sound they like the best. Hey, if I could double like those guys I would too!!

I'm not talking about an individuals personal choice....I'm mainly referring to Universities etc. telling electric players they have to play upright and/or be an upright major to get the degree etc. or you have to play upright to play jazz. That's my frustration....

And....I TOTALLY agree with your point about "folks NOT hearing our voice in THEIR music or THEIR ensemble. ABSOLUTELY!! Well said....

Hey, I experience that first hand all the time.....that's the chance you take when you make a decision to play one or the other. Steve Swallow is a perfect example of this......he lost a TON of work because of his "switch" to electric.

Anyway......I hope this makes sense. I most definitely am NOT saying that playing upright on standards is short sighted or close minded.....or that you have to play electric on a funk tune etc.

It should be up to the individual musician....or band leader for that matter.

Personally, I LOVE working with an upright player. Anyway....

Like I said...I'm pretty sure we're in agreement....I probably didn't state my case very clearly.

[Marcus Willett]

Fascinating topic. I've encountered the "Jazz Nazi™" (I just trademarked that term ) mentality in all its' various forms (among them the upright issue) many times in my years of playing.

There definitely is a bias in the jazz community against the electric bass; but I've always found it amusing that electric pianos never seem to be a problem, nor electric guitars even. There exists a presumption among many that it just ain't jazz unless it's upright. Oh, that guy playing the DX7....that's different.

If we're honest with ourselves; a fair amount of it is visual. There a few more iconic "jazz" images than a cat playing an upright bass. Preferably in a cool suit. A slick hat is nice touch too. As recently as last year I was offered a gig to play upright in a show. A tracked show. The fact that I don't play upright was completely irrelevant. Just had to fake it and have "the look"

Also, last year I did some sessions for a trumpet player recording some standards. I had done some other tracks before he got to the studio with my Wendler electrocoustic. He came in, listened to the other stuff being mixed and even commented that he liked the tone I was getting. "What kind of pickup are you using on your bass?" he asked. "Sounds really smooth."

Of course his face dropped when I showed him that it was an electric bass. It took a while to convince him to try recording with the thing he liked 60 seconds ago. This experience is not unique either.

FWIW, most of the more enlightened players I've worked with only care if you can play and other concerns be damned. One older (71) pianist I work with actually prefers electric because he says he can hear the attack and pitch more clearly and he likes that.

I've also found it amusing that the music of jazz which (to me) at its' heart is about innovation, taking chances, living in the moment, experimentation and trying new ideas has some of its' most vocal supporters insist that it be done the same way forever with nothing changing.

Will you get more work if you can play upright along with electric? Yes. You'll get even more work if you can play electric bass mediocre and sing fairly well. I can't count how many gigs I've done where vocals were wanted/needed. I've been asked about upright maybe a dozen or so times.

Of course, it should be about the music anyway. If you want work; this isn't really the best industry to work in anyway.

Anyway, IMO do what you do and do it well and with passion. If you can do that, people will want to work with you. Maybe not the Jazz Nazis™, but I can do without them.

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Fascinating topic. I've encountered the "Jazz Nazi™" (I just trademarked that term ) mentality in all its' various forms (among them the upright issue) many times in my years of playing.

There definitely is a bias in the jazz community against the electric bass; but I've always found it amusing that electric pianos never seem to be a problem, nor electric guitars even. There exists a presumption among many that it just ain't jazz unless it's upright. Oh, that guy playing the DX7....that's different.

If we're honest with ourselves; a fair amount of it is visual. There a few more iconic "jazz" images than a cat playing an upright bass. Preferably in a cool suit. A slick hat is nice touch too. As recently as last year I was offered a gig to play upright in a show. A tracked show. The fact that I don't play upright was completely irrelevant. Just had to fake it and have "the look"

Also, last year I did some sessions for a trumpet player recording some standards. I had done some other tracks before he got to the studio with my Wendler electrocoustic. He came in, listened to the other stuff being mixed and even commented that he liked the tone I was getting. "What kind of pickup are you using on your bass?" he asked. "Sounds really smooth."

Of course his face dropped when I showed him that it was an electric bass. It took a while to convince him to try recording with the thing he liked 60 seconds ago. This experience is not unique either.

FWIW, most of the more enlightened players I've worked with only care if you can play and other concerns be damned. One older (71) pianist I work with actually prefers electric because he says he can hear the attack and pitch more clearly and he likes that.

I've also found it amusing that the music of jazz which (to me) at its' heart is about innovation, taking chances, living in the moment, experimentation and trying new ideas has some of its' most vocal supporters insist that it be done the same way forever with nothing changing.

Will you get more work if you can play upright along with electric? Yes. You'll get even more work if you can play electric bass mediocre and sing fairly well. I can't count how many gigs I've done where vocals were wanted/needed. I've been asked about upright maybe a dozen or so times.

Of course, it should be about the music anyway. If you want work; this isn't really the best industry to work in anyway.

Anyway, IMO do what you do and do it well and with passion. If you can do that, people will want to work with you. Maybe not the Jazz Nazis™, but I can do without them.

Marcus,

Extremely well said my friend!!

Hey, PLEASE tell Rosa Avila that her "Uncle Todd" says hello. You're fortunate to be playing with such a great drummer!!

Thanks again for your great input!!

[Marcus Willett]

Originally Posted by Todd Johnson

Marcus,

Extremely well said my friend!!

Hey, PLEASE tell Rosa Avila that her "Uncle Todd" says hello. You're fortunate to be playing with such a great drummer!!

Thanks again for your great input!!

Small world! Yeah, Rosa is great. We just did a jazz gig last night in fact with a great trumpet player named Jay Daversa (most people know him as the guy who played the theme on "The Waltons"). Electric bass and keyboards and it was cool...to me it was a jazz gig. We were playing standards, trying different feels on tunes, breaking things up, everybody blowing....to me that's jazz whatever your axe is, y' know?

I'll be sure to say hi to Rosa when I see her tonight!

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Small world! Yeah, Rosa is great. We just did a jazz gig last night in fact with a great trumpet player named Jay Daversa (most people know him as the guy who played the theme on "The Waltons"). Electric bass and keyboards and it was cool...to me it was a jazz gig. We were playing standards, trying different feels on tunes, breaking things up, everybody blowing....to me that's jazz whatever your axe is, y' know?

I'll be sure to say hi to Rosa when I see her tonight!

AWESOME!! Thanks Marcus!! Yeah, Jay Daversa is wonderful. Congrats!!

[jayarroz]

the guy with the rodes playes the bass now...and I loss that gig.... Go figure!

[kimstevens]

I think I'll chime in to mention that I think there are more opportunities these days on upright, rather than electric... I'm not sure if Todd was referring to the additional opportunities being for doublers rather than strictly upright players, but in general 95% of "acoustic" jazz gigs seem to want upright. The sad thing to me is that electric bass can sound so sweet and expressive at relatively low volumes... I think the instrument got a bad rap partly because of its role in very loud pop and rock music, and in my opinion, loud music destroys musical subtlety as well as eardrums. I recently learned (from the book, "This Is Your Brain On Music"), that the human ear actually compresses sound above a certain threshold so as to protect it from damage! I think this is partly why, to me at least, really loud music sounds so un-musical. The bias is an unfortunate situation for us electric players, but we must press on! Perhaps being shut out of many gigs will give us the impetus to be more creative and leader-oriented in our pursuits.

[Rockman]

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by kimstevens

I think I'll chime in to mention that I think there are more opportunities these days on upright, rather than electric... I'm not sure if Todd was referring to the additional opportunities being for doublers rather than strictly upright players, but in general 95% of "acoustic" jazz gigs seem to want upright. The sad thing to me is that electric bass can sound so sweet and expressive at relatively low volumes... I think the instrument got a bad rap partly because of its role in very loud pop and rock music, and in my opinion, loud music destroys musical subtlety as well as eardrums. I recently learned (from the book, "This Is Your Brain On Music"), that the human ear actually compresses sound above a certain threshold so as to protect it from damage! I think this is partly why, to me at least, really loud music sounds so un-musical. The bias is an unfortunate situation for us electric players, but we must press on! Perhaps being shut out of many gigs will give us the impetus to be more creative and leader-oriented in our pursuits.

Hi Kim,

Thanks for your input......What I tried to say was that there are "overall" more opportunities (it seems) for electric bass....counting rock, pop, funk, country etc....Obviously "jazz" and "classical are "primarily" acoustic bass. Understood.

Your other comments are "right on" IMHO!!!

[Todd Johnson]

Originally Posted by Rockman

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

Hi Rockman,

Respectfully (and with a gentle tone).....I'll have to disagree with you on part of your post. Your idea is that we should "study upright because its more difficult and good teachers are hard to find" and that we can then "work out our own technique and style for electric". Sorry my friend....but this doesn't make sense to me.

Getting a good sound on ANY instrument is a difficult thing. Fair enough??? As you know....upright and electric technique are polar opposites. It's my opinion that one is not harder than the other....they're just different......and studying one and then just "working out your own technique" on the other doesn't make sense to me.

However, we are in TOTAL agreement when you say "I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.[/quote]

Well said Rockman..........

I think it's a good thing for college music majors to play a bit of both. But I think they should have the option of which one they want to have as their "main voice" and major on. That's my point....It's not an upright vs. electric debate.....and I'm afraid that's what this will turn into.

Anyway.....Thanks again for you input and opinion!! I appreciate and value your participation!!

[HaVIC5]

Great things being said in this thread, I truly agree with everything that Marcus and Todd have said. The thing about the IMAGE of the upright bass is an important thing to take into consideration a lot of the time, because the thing that a lot of learned musicians overlook is the aspect of image in hiring and performing. I myself am a doubler who has found his primary voice on the electric, but is ready and willing to bust out the upright when the gig calls for it. And more often than not, I find myself lugging the monster around town than the BG, not because of the musicians that I play with (they all dig my playing on electric), but because of the people that hire me. I play a bunch of house parties, dinner parties, small events and the like, and most people have a very specific image in mind for what they want when they hire a jazz band. Playing pleasant background music is easy enough - you could just put on CD and that would essentially do the same thing. You have to create an image too, since that's part of the whole live music appeal. I prefer electric on my own gigs, such as club dates or whatever, but for the private functions, upright seems to be the best choice.

One of the things that all electric bassists who play jazz need to keep in mind is that the pocket that's created by electric bass is going to be different than that created by an upright bass. A lot of drummers are used to playing with upright bassists, and its going to be a shift for them to adjust to how an electric bass sits in the groove. There is necessarily going to be less thump and more sustain. That is, unless you're trying to emulate an upright bass all the time by palm-muting everything, and then I ask the question, why don't you just play upright? But I digress.

I think a reason why electric bass is "looked down upon" in jazz circles is because, quite frankly, there are a lot more amateur (not bad, just non-professional) musicians playing electric bass than amateur musicians playing upright bass. It takes more dedication to technique to play an upright bass versus an electric bass because of all of the health hazards involved as well as the intonation issue, and so you have more amateurs playing electric. They might therefore not have the ideal grasp of a suitable tone/groove for playing in an ensemble setting an so, in addition to the "LOUD MUSIC" association of electric bass, many purists and jazzheads will necessarily turn their noses up to the instrument as a whole.

What I never quite figured out was why electric guitar is a perfectly acceptable instrument in jazz circles, even on some "acoustic" gigs, but not electric bass guitar. Go figure.

Well I think it would definetely be more beneficial to study upright in college. Because the musical concepts are the same for both instruments, the difference is the technique and sound. And the technique for and electric bass is a lot easier than upright, so to me it makes sense to get the assistance in what you need,especially when great upright teacher are few and far between, and when you can work out your own technique and style for electric. Now that being said, I think that colleges should not just say, you must play x or y or z, but in fact you must play xyandz.

What Todd said regarding this matter I agree with, but I also would like to add some things. Yes, technique in many ways could be easier on electric versus upright - its far less physically intensive, you don't have to worry about intonation issues, learning arco technique isn't necessary, etc, etc. However, you're making the rather incorrect assumption that technique is transferrable from instrument to instrument - if you play upright, you supposedly can play electric just as well. That's like saying "if you can play french horn, you can play trumpet just as well", or "if you can play clarinet, you can play sax just as well." The former instruments in these instances, french horn, clarinet and upright bass all have more technical hurdles to overcome than their counterparts, but it would be ridiculous to assume that if you can play one you can play the other with the same technical finesse. They're all different instruments with different characteristics that need to be learned, controlled and mastered on their own, no vicariously through the study of another instrument. You can easily tell an upright bass player when they play electric, versus a doubler - somebody who has studied and plays both.

[battousai]

It is funny when the "acoustic purists" play live, there is almost always some form of amplification, either on the upright, a mic on the horns, or as stated earlier, electric guitar.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

However, you're making the rather incorrect assumption that technique is transferrable from instrument to instrument - if you play upright, you supposedly can play electric just as well. That's like saying "if you can play french horn, you can play trumpet just as well",

I think you are misinterpretting my post. Most people I know who play both started on electric, and have had a few years of experience on that before starting to go into upright, myself included. What I meant to say was that for a serious doubler, it makes more sense to study on upright because of the time and experience difference between the two, and a few years makes a big difference. Now this all changes if the person in question started on an upright or started both at the exact same time. I guess the assumption that I'm making is most of us have more experience playing electric and don't need the help as much.

*disclaimer*Just want to mention that I may have picked an unfortunate name. I made this account in those years when I hadn't started playing upright or jazz seriously*end*

[alexei]

The guys already said it all. IMHO, excelent points of view already fill this thread

Besides...
you can always use a flatwound strings fretless electric bass, that will surely sounds more like an upright bass, than a fretted roundwound-stringed electric one.

Also, you can try acoustic-electric bass for a more approach.

Acoustic fretless bass, with flatwound strings, mic'ed rather than piezo p-up will more likely sound like an upright bass, than a real URB itself. Plus, you probably get more complete sound with more mid-range and high-range adding some % of the piezo pickups signal to the mix.

[gwx014]

Originally Posted by alexei

The guys already said it all. IMHO, excelent points of view already fill this thread

Besides...
you can always use a flatwound strings fretless electric bass, that will surely sounds more like an upright bass, than a fretted roundwound-stringed electric one.

Also, you can try acoustic-electric bass for a more approach.

Acoustic fretless bass, with flatwound strings, mic'ed rather than piezo p-up will more likely sound like an upright bass, than a real URB itself. Plus, you probably get more complete sound with more mid-range and high-range adding some % of the piezo pickups signal to the mix.

Very good point, This kind of takes us back to the image thing, because a lot of people aren't going to be able to tell the sonic differences between a Rob Allen type Bass or an ABG and an Upright Bass, but they can see the difference.