1 Quick Question for you "Amp Guru's"

[unclejam]

What happened to "If it sounds good it, is good." mentality?

This used to be a nice community where i could ask a question and not worry about being bludgeoned to death with all this fancy smancy terminology and over thought science crap.



Mods if this is in the wrong spot move it

[bassmodder]

Marketing. In the 3 years you have been here you should have noticed that there will always be a nicer amp than someone else has...

[unclejam]

no I mean whats about to happen in this thread

8 months of searching and i found it.

[pbd]

what happened did someone say something to you???

I like to talk tech as much as the next guy but its about tone for me, a new gadget is fun but if it ultimaly doesn't sound good . . . .


just my 2 cents,
Todd

[will33]

Originally Posted by unclejam

"If it sounds good it, is good."

That's still true and always will be....but.....learning some tech will make you sound either better or more importantly, get the sound you like to hear out to more people ears. "Modern and clear" doesn't have to mean "sterile and dead". It can make that sound you love standing in front of your rig available to more people or at least sound like that across a greater area. Extremely general/vague there but I'm writing a short paragraph, not an article or "how-to" book.

[bass4worship]

Like anything else it good to learn the basic and that where learning about old and new gear come in.

[Jerrold Tiers]

"Science" has it's place, but all the science in the world won't fix crappy sound if it doesn't address the problem.

An old local blues guy here (now deceased) always played through an old half-dead Fender (IIRC, could have been something else) with tubes in it so old they barely lit up.....

Whenever he needed it fixed he'd make a point of telling the tech NOT to change the tubes, nor move them around. And given some of the folks he knew, it was always a good thing to do what the man said....

"Science" says that amp was bad and at least needed new tubes.

That man that played it knew he liked the sound, and he knew how to play it just the way it was, getting out exactly what he wanted.... The "bad" tubes worked for him perfectly, and "science" could take a flying leap as far as he was concerned.

It sounded good, so it WAS good...... what's not to like?

It's the MUSIC, stupid.........

[scotch]

I think I know where the op is coming from. All too often, in the amps forum, the discourse gets over-polarized between the "engineering" camp and those of us less schooled in amp design and construction. Especially with speaker cabinets!

I think it's just that there is a lot of passion. But, let's face it, sometimes what shouldn't "work most efficiently" or "sound ideal" ends up working great in a given context. For example, an 8x10 cabinet placed on it's side, or an undersized box for a speaker.

On the other hand, scientific fact is fact.

It's important for end-users (like myself) to acknowledge and accept the engineering principles involved in amp & cabinet design. It's also important for the engineers to accept that their products may be used in ways they didn't intend and that the results can be desirable.

[jnewmark]

I'm not really sure what you are getting at, but, if you like what ever setup you have, then it's all fine and dandy. If you want to change it somehow to get more of this and less of that, you are gonna get all kinds of educated opinions, especially from the guys on here who do this stuff for a living, and are professional system designers, amp techs, etc. As far as the 410/115 topic, it's beat to death here almost on a daily basis.

[KramerBassFan]

You do know.... on opinion based things, if you don't like it, you don't have to listen.


A Band Called Nuclear Assault once said that.. NOW... if its how to get an efficient speaker cabinet... then listen to the techs!

[unclejam]

Originally Posted by scotch

I think I know where the op is coming from. All too often, in the amps forum, the discourse gets over-polarized between the "engineering" camp and those of us less schooled in amp design and construction. Especially with speaker cabinets!

I think it's just that there is a lot of passion. But, let's face it, sometimes what shouldn't "work most efficiently" or "sound ideal" ends up working great in a given context. For example, an 8x10 cabinet placed on it's side, or an undersized box for a speaker.

On the other hand, scientific fact is fact.

It's important for end-users (like myself) to acknowledge and accept the engineering principles involved in amp & cabinet design. It's also important for the engineers to accept that their products may be used in ways they didn't intend and that the results can be desirable.

this

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by Jerrold Tiers

"Science" says that amp was bad and at least needed new tubes.

Of course you know that science says nothing of the sort. In fact, science doesn't "say" anything. Science is a method of testing hypotheses.

[pbd]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Of course you know that science says nothing of the sort. In fact, science doesn't "say" anything. Science is a method of testing hypotheses.

depending on the field of science, it can be a matter of how you interpret the data

[MAMMOTHvolume]

generally a well engineered and designed piece of kit will sound better than a poorly designed one. All this science etc is there to try and achieve the sound people want

[KJung]

I understand the OP's point. Even as one who is interested very much in the technical issues in bass amplification design and performance (from a layman's perspective), sometimes there is a bit of 'you have to be an idiot to play a rig like that' mentality in some of these type of posts. This, combined with the fact that some of the technical people represent companies that have a vested interest in promoting 'their view of correct design', makes it a bit much at times, and results in a bit more 'chickens flapping their wings' than being helpful.

Also, especially in speaker design, and since I have the pleasure to play quite a bit of this stuff, sometimes a 'flawed' design on paper can sound and perform quite a bit better for certain playing styles and tone goals than a box or amp that seems more 'correct' on paper, based on some of the classic variables. Sometimes having the most low end extension and smoothest mids is not necessarily a goal that benefits every single player in every single context.

Other technical topics with speaker design start to get into what I call the 'aerodynamics of automobiles' sort of thing... yes, improving the aerodynamics will give you a slight improvement in performance on various measures, but horsepower is kind of cheap if you like the look of a car that is not quite 'on paper' optimal on that one measure. There are many 'classic' speaker designs that are low end attenuated, beamy, peaky and every other damn thing that sound absolutely glorious in many contexts.

IMO! I very much appreciate most of the technical information shared on this site, and feel like I continue to learn a lot from this site, but sometimes the 'attitude of communication' gets a little bit too over the top. To be fair, that is probably the nature of the beast, since many of the issues these guys address comes up over and over again (i.e., 15 loaded cabs have more bass than 410's, etc.).

[nukes_da_bass]

Eve bit the apple and the serpent was offering her a better amplifier.
I came up in the 80s when everyone was re-engineering everything from the instruments to the heads to the cabs.
Flea was my hero so I made it a point to get a used GK 400 RB and a Hartke Transporter- then once i was in bands consistently I realized no one gets to slap much in most pop music and the "sound" i had aimed for wasnt going to help me make dough.
Then it was tube preamps- the tube/SS hybrids-better sound, still not what my inner bass player heard.
Most of the breakthroughs in bass amp engineering that actually sound good, IMO, happened by about 1970-tubes, ported sealed enclosures, rumbling low end that sounded great and cut through the mix.
I'm not gonna get rid of my 4 lb Eden WTX260 anytime soon-I'm just saying my best memories of amazing bass were on big stacks of all tube power through big cabs. If i had the back for it, I'd have 200 lbs of cabs at gigs.
If it sounds good to you, and the crowd is dancing, then no amp guru in the world should be able to change your mind!

[Bmorefoozler]

I certainly understand where Ken is coming from and is correct in many ways.

But the guy that doesn't understand why he can barely hear his 1000 watt 410+115 rig as soon as he steps three feet to the side from close in front of his cab will understand that what "sounds good" doesn't always sound good.

Simply put, if it sounds good everywhere you need it to, it is good.
As Ken Mentions, Beaming becomes less of an issue as you move out in the crowd and get more reflections, and most side by side cabs sound fine in the crowd. But if your rig isn't one of them, it doesn't matter how glorious it sounds 5 feet straight in front if you are carrying the house. It also doesn't matter if you are unable to stand directly in front of your rig on a specific stage.

There is some frustrated "banging over the head" going on here, but in many cases it solves mysteries to some that haven't even peered into acoustic science.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

I certainly understand where Ken is coming from and is correct in many ways.

But the guy that doesn't understand why he can barely hear his 1000 watt 410+115 rig as soon as he steps three feet to the side from close in front of his cab will understand that what "sounds good" doesn't always sound good.

Simply put, if it sounds good everywhere you need it to, it is good.
As Ken Mentions, Beaming becomes less of an issue as you move out in the crowd and get more reflections, and most side by side cabs sound fine in the crowd. But if your rig isn't one of them, it doesn't matter how glorious it sounds 5 feet straight in front if you are carrying the house. It also doesn't matter if you are unable to stand directly in front of your rig on a specific stage.

There is some frustrated "banging over the head" going on here, but in many cases it solves mysteries to some that haven't even peered into acoustic science.

+1 Just trying to see both sides of the 'debate'.

Agree also that sometimes your ears can really fool you. Recently, I've been spending time with some of these cabs with the very hi xmax drivers with high power handling and relatively low SPL. When you just kind of A/B them with a more standard cab, they aren't particularly impressive, since they don't have that upper bass bump that makes a cab sound very loud with very little power. However, when you really start to turn them up (and you have to turn the knob a lot more with the more deeply voiced cabs with those lower SPL high xmax drivers, if I have that right), all of a sudden, the 'normal' production cabs start to compress in the low end, while the hi xmax cab just keeps on cooking and sounds quite similar from low volume through surprisingly high volume. Power is cheap these days, so that can be a very nice trade-off if you are looking for 'small, low, AND loud'.... with enough power and very good driver spec's, you finally can actually have all three.

So, to be clear, I don't mind looking like an idiot every once in a while as long as I eventually come to terms with some of this stuff and continue to learn more about 'what makes it sound good'.

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 Just trying to see both sides of the 'debate'.

Agree also that sometimes your ears can really fool you. Recently, I've been spending time with some of these cabs with the very hi xmax drivers with high power handling and relatively low SPL. When you just kind of A/B them with a more standard cab, they aren't particularly impressive, since they don't have that upper bass bump that makes a cab sound very loud with very little power. However, when you really start to turn them up (and you have to turn the knob a lot more with the more deeply voiced cabs with those lower SPL high xmax drivers, if I have that right), all of a sudden, the 'normal' production cabs start to compress in the low end, while the hi xmax cab just keeps on cooking and sounds quite similar from low volume through surprisingly high volume. Power is cheap these days, so that can be a very nice trade-off if you are looking for 'small, low, AND loud'.... with enough power and very good driver spec's, you finally can actually have all three.

So, to be clear, I don't mind looking like an idiot every once in a while as long as I eventually come to terms with some of this stuff and continue to learn more about 'what makes it sound good'.

Agreed, the correct answer is almost always somewhere in the middle. The more you can really see both sides of an argument the more likely you are to come to peace with a decision.

Bill's "tagline" is to listen for yourself and decide, but when you CAN'T try for yourslef, go with matched cabs in a vertical line. If life wee perfect we could test every circumstance and situation of using cabs before buying, but it's not. Reducing variables make blind internet suggestions "better".

Also, if it were par for the course to read for weeks and months before posting then I'm sure the "experts" would come off less snarky. They wouldn't need to constantly stop the kids from touching the same hot stove. The focus would shift to more developed and new issues.

[JimmyM]

hey, i use an 810 or a 215, both of which are known for beaming highs and mids. i didn't know that till i started hanging out in amps. it doesn't make me stop using them, but it does let me know why i can't hear mids and highs when i stand out of its line of fire and i can adjust myself accordingly.

knowledge is never a bad thing. sometimes it explains major flaws in your rig that have always eaten at you and were impossible for you to correct, and sometimes your ears may tell you something's good that isn't supposed to work on paper. but isn't it better to know what you're dealing with than not? i certainly think so.