10"s + 15"s - Some good old TalkBass contradictions...

tbassist4 · #1 08-02-2010, 10:59 PM

Hey everyone,
I just got to the end of a long thread talking about how 10"s and 15"s were out of phase and how the world would blow up if you tried to use them together (however no one provided audio results for comparison). Immediately after, I looked at the speaker size poll in the FAQ. The second most used combination was 10"s + 15"s. If this combination is so undesirable, why in the world do so many people use it?

What gives?

msquared · #2 08-02-2010, 11:50 PM

This is the Internet. Everybody is wrong.

kesslari · #3 08-02-2010, 11:52 PM

Even the trolls are wrong sometimes.

**TheMutt** · #4 08-02-2010, 11:55 PM

Shhhh! Don't talk too loudly...
"They" might find out that you blabbed about the ultimate secret and seek to silence you.

Waterpilot · #5 08-03-2010, 12:06 AM

If it was the same poll I think it was... That poll was started in 2001. It may be that technology and some understanding has changed since then. A new poll may yield different results... It would seems as if a 412 would rank a little higher as well.

SurferJoe46 · #6 08-03-2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbassist4

Hey everyone,
I just got to the end of a long thread talking about how 10"s and 15"s were out of phase and how the world would blow up if you tried to use them together (however no one provided audio results for comparison). Immediately after, I looked at the speaker size poll in the FAQ. The second most used combination was 10"s + 15"s. If this combination is so undesirable, why in the world do so many people use it?

What gives?

It's prolly the number of 10s with the 15 that matters the most.

TWO tens and ONE 15 are a pretty neat package - but more than two 10s and you run into Wattage/power disparities - that's really all that happens.

The Time-Space Continuum is still safe.

StephenLyonBass · #7 08-03-2010, 12:26 AM

I agree that changes in technology need to be considered when combining cabs. I am planning on running the new svt 7 pro with a ampeg 1x15 and 4x10 hlf. I'm hoping it will be enough for any stage.

R Baer · #8 08-03-2010, 12:32 AM

A lot of the debate has to do with things like dispersion and comb filtering and the like. Problem is, most of us are just standing a few feet from our amps and never notice such things. Also, for all the theory to support why some designs just don't work on paper, like a 115/410 stack for example, there are still of players who love using them. Personally, you can give me all the reasons in the world why an 810 cabinet is a poor design, but I could care less because they are a blast to play through!

JimmyM · #9 08-03-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephenLyonBass

I agree that changes in technology need to be considered when combining cabs. I am planning on running the new svt 7 pro with a ampeg 1x15 and 4x10 hlf. I'm hoping it will be enough for any stage.

you can't. the 7 pro has a 4 ohm minimum, and the 410hlf is 4 ohms. hook up a 115 and you drop it to 2.67 ohms, which will either force it go to thermal shutdown or smoke it. besides, out of all the 410 cabs out there, a 115 would be the absolutely most useless with a 410hlf. the 410hlf is twice as loud and goes way deeper than the 115e. you may not even notice if the 115e is on.

anyway, there are a lot of reasons why a lot of folks like the 410/115 combination, and most of them are based on looks. people assume, "hey, little speakers and big speakers...the little speakers are for the highs and the big speaker is for the lows!" doesn't really work like that. and yet it does remain a popular combination for bass. hey, if that's what you're into, i guess i can't say anything because i do love to use an 810, which has horrible off axis response. but i never liked the 410/115 combo, even before i knew the first thing about phase relationships and comb filtering. and now that i know, i like it even less. but beaming i can live with for some strange reason.

ampcarfan · #10 08-03-2010, 06:01 AM

I use a 115 and "2" 210 cabs (all 8ohm) and love it, but If 4x10+1x15 is such a poor combination, why would a premier company such as Mesa Boogie build the 1200? Not interested in debating it, but am interested in hearing thoughts on this?

Oraflora · #11 08-03-2010, 06:08 AM

Probably because people will buy it.

I like to use a 410 + 410 if I need more than one cabinet for a gig, FWIW.

JimmyM · #12 08-03-2010, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampcarfan

I use a 115 and "2" 210 cabs (all 8ohm) and love it, but If 4x10+1x15 is such a poor combination, why would a premier company such as Mesa Boogie build the 1200? Not interested in debating it, but am interested in hearing thoughts on this?

because they think it will sell to those who like the 410/115.

countrybass007 · #13 08-03-2010, 06:14 AM

Some of the best sounding rigs I've heard have been 410/115 combinations. It may be "wrong" but it does work, in spite of all the negative feedback. The new Trace Elliott rig reviewed in Bass Player sounded best with this combo.

billfitzmaurice · #14 08-03-2010, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbassist4

If this combination is so undesirable, why in the world do so many people use it?

Because manufacturers aggressively promote it, while users don't thoroughly investigate the pros and cons. BTW, it's not the 10/15 combination that's so bad, it's the 410/115 that is simply AFU from the get go. The 210/115 combination is OK, but since 210 and 115 cabs aren't the same size and don't stack perfectly and look as pretty as identically sized 410/115 rigs manufacturers don't promote the 210/115 combination. They promote what sells cabs, and what sells cabs is how they look.

lomo · #15 08-03-2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countrybass007

Some of the best sounding rigs I've heard have been 410/115 combinations. It may be "wrong" but it does work, in spite of all the negative feedback. The new Trace Elliott rig reviewed in Bass Player sounded best with this combo.

The sound of the 410/115 stack is virtually all coming from the 410. The 15 may hurt, wont help, and is a heavy, expensive stand for the 410.

ampcarfan · #16 08-03-2010, 06:57 AM

hmmm... well, I guess it's all in what we like. I WILL agree on one thing, the 115 doesn't create the bottom (subsonic), at least mine doesn't. The EV 15L (no horn) is a great standalone cab for rehersal, but paired with the 2 210s it slightly brighter and can be heard over the 10s (especially the further away you get from the rig) despite the fact that its physically on the bottom of the stack.

billfitzmaurice · #17 08-03-2010, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampcarfan

hmmm... well, I guess it's all in what we like. I WILL agree on one thing, the 115 doesn't create the bottom (subsonic), at least mine doesn't. The EV 15L (no horn) is a great standalone cab for rehersal, but paired with the 2 210s it slightly brighter and can be heard over the 10s (especially the further away you get from the rig) despite the fact that its physically on the bottom of the stack.

That's because the EVM has much higher sensitivity than the average driver, especially on-axis in the mids and highs. It obtains that high sensitivity at the expense of low end response. The upshot is that the EVM goes higher and louder than most tens, but not as low.

countrybass007 · #18 08-03-2010, 07:06 AM

If you can't hear my OBC115, no matter what I'm using it with, it's time for a hearing check. It adds a extra low-end thump that no 410 cab I've ever heard can provide. I know all my band members notice it, as do the sound men we work with. It will continue to be part of my rig for that reason. It adds to the overall quality of the tone.

panama · #19 08-03-2010, 07:19 AM

I use a 410/15 rig and it sounds fine, but I am trying to swap out the 15 for another 410.

ampcarfan · #20 08-03-2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

That's because the EVM has much higher sensitivity than the average driver, especially on-axis in the mids and highs. It obtains that high sensitivity at the expense of low end response. The upshot is that the EVM goes higher and louder than most tens, but not as low.

Thanks for the explaination Bill. I know most TBers don't approve of this setup. Who knows, maybe in time I will change it up, but it works well paired with the EV 10's.