10s, 12s and 15s... OH MY!!!!

Limeman · #1 03-19-2011, 09:50 AM

The house at a recurring gig I have has a 15/10 cab setup on stage. I typically just bring my Mesa Walkabout and 2 Aguilar GS112s, and don't use the house cabs at all. Last night it was pouring rain, so to make hauling the gear easier, I took just 1 GS112 and my Walkabout. I knew the drummer was going to be loud, so I chose to utilize the house 210 and 115 cabs along with the GS112 to gain extra onstage volume from my Mesa. I had the G112 on top of the 15 cab and then stood the 210 on its side and placed it right up against the other cabs. Now I am not one to favor mixing cabs, and in fact, my favorite setup is to run nothing but Aggie 12s on stage, but this config was fun. Just by moving a few steps left or right, I could get more of the tone my ears needed to hear. Need more clarity? Move towards the 10s. Want more of that growl from the 12s? Move back to center. Now I'm sure the setup sounded like crap to the house, and fortunately, FOH was supported by full PA and subs, but I was surprised at how versatile this configuration was on stage. Made for a fun night of laying down the groove.

BurningSkies · #2 03-19-2011, 10:18 AM

You know, it can be a lot of fun to have lots of speakers on stage, but your experience also perfectly illustrates why its best not to mix and match and do so horizontally.

As you know, a few feet left and right on stage means a wider divergence out in the house, and getting different tonal colors also means that in the house people are hearing completely different things depending upon where they stand.

And this isn't directed at you, but to the many around here who seem to think that all the scary 'science talk' is just talk and means nothing in the 'real world'...this shows its more than talk.

Limeman · #3 03-20-2011, 10:32 AM

I agree. My experience, while fun and interesting, was a strong reminder for me to keep my bass cabs identical, which is what I traditionally do.

Downunderwonder · #4 03-20-2011, 10:42 AM

And vertically aligned

edervjo · #5 03-20-2011, 11:19 AM

I agree, Line-array is no longer theory, but accepted fact. And proven to work well for bass, checkout the TM array from Meyers sound for the largest application of this "theory". Its all about keeping the source within 1/2 a wavelength away from each other vertically, so they couple and not side to side, where they cause phase cancellation in the horizontal plane.

Onstage, I stack my 2-10 s or 2-15s vertically facing straight out as center stage as possible, usually right next to the drummer. If I do need side fill, i use one or the other stacks almost off stage in the wings, firing directly across the stage.

xXColaXx · #6 03-20-2011, 11:30 AM

I am a bit new to these sort of things. So basically what is being said is it is better to play, for example, 2 4x10's or 2 1x15's than a 4x10 and 1x15 combo?

BurningSkies · #7 03-20-2011, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

I am a bit new to these sort of things. So basically what is being said is it is better to play, for example, 2 4x10's or 2 1x15's than a 4x10 and 1x15 combo?

Yes. This is part of the fEARful/Barefaced, etc. designs that have become so popular around here. A little less on the 4x10/4x10 thing (because you have drivers next to each other rather than vertically aligned), although having the same drivers/configuration do help for other reasons.

You may notice that you'll see some guys playing rigs with 2x10 cabs set up so their drivers stack vertically as well.

xXColaXx · #8 03-20-2011, 11:43 AM

What exactly are drivers?

markkoelsch · #9 03-20-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

I am a bit new to these sort of things. So basically what is being said is it is better to play, for example, 2 4x10's or 2 1x15's than a 4x10 and 1x15 combo?

Yes and no. The 4x10 has a phase cancellation issue as a part of the design. Some might say it is a design flaw. Some like the sound. This is from memory. but I believe essentially all 4x10 cabs have a large dip in the frequecy response in the 2 khz range. Some like thi ssound and some do not.

BurningSkies · #10 03-20-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

What exactly are drivers?

Speakers...

The science that is acoustics is something that every musician should look into...even if its just on a basic rough understanding level. Its easy to plow on through with the 'pound away' attitude, but once you get some of bigger ideas down, bands sound better, you sound better, and in many ways, live sound becomes less of a 'fight'.

xXColaXx · #11 03-20-2011, 12:53 PM

@Markkoelsch
In terms of sound speaking generally, what would the difference be between the 1x15 and 4x10? From my very basic understanding, 4x10 has a tighter sound that works well with slap and pop but it also works well with finger style. I was also told that a 1x15 has less of that tight sound so with slap and pop you don't get as "snappy" of a sound and with finger style it has more "rumble" and less individual note definition and clarity. This could be completely wrong, but that is what I have heard.

@BurningSkies
I would definitely like to understand it better. Anything that helps me better understand, play and perform I am in favor of. If you have any sources, or if you yourself, could explain it in an easy way to someone that doesn't know the real technical methods (like myself) could understand, that would be most appreciated.

The main reason I joined Talkbass was to learn from other bassists and grow as a musician. Already I have learned so much so I really appreciate the info you guys give. When I have the resources to do so, I definitely plan on donating.

BurningSkies · #12 03-20-2011, 01:04 PM

Start right here. At TB.

AMPS FAQ!! Info on OHMS, Allsize RIGS-OverUnderPowerCabs DIY TechTalk-Links

This thread has way more than just 'howz doos my Ohms werk?' topics.

Pan on down to the section that reads "Technical and Design Discussions". The first 4 or 5 links are really good places to start.

If you want a nice place to read up on the topics in this thread, hit this nice one:
Mixing Cabinets and Phase Response.

Also, read up the FAQ about speaker size, characteristics, etc. It plays into all of this too. When your girlfriend tells you size doesn't matter, she may be lying, but when it comes to speakers, she's dead on.

From there, maybe do some checking on the fEARful threads (there's a LOT of info buried in 10 threads worth of posts), and it doesn't just apply to fEARful cabs, but is nuts and bolts info about the hows and whys of acoustics and speakers.

GrowlerBox · #13 03-20-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

In terms of sound speaking generally, what would the difference be between the 1x15 and 4x10? From my very basic understanding, 4x10 has a tighter sound that works well with slap and pop but it also works well with finger style. I was also told that a 1x15 has less of that tight sound so with slap and pop you don't get as "snappy" of a sound and with finger style it has more "rumble" and less individual note definition and clarity. This could be completely wrong, but that is what I have heard.

To second BurningSkies' response to this -- the only quality that can be attributed to the diameter of the speaker cone is dispersion of "directional" frequencies (mid- and high-range). larger speakers tend to "beam" these frequencies straight out in front to a degree proportional to their diameter. All speakers do it, but the point in the spectrum at which they start to do it to an appreciable degree is higher with smaller drivers.

There is no relationship between speaker size and "tone", which has far more to do with other characteristics of the speaker (see Thiele-Small parameters) and the design of the cabinet in which it is housed. Myths to the contrary are still extraordinarily pervasive, however, and are very often expressed in terms of such statements as, "I prefer 12s to 10s" and the like.

azureblue · #14 03-20-2011, 01:26 PM

stuff work with a tilt back 2-12?

BurningSkies · #15 03-20-2011, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azureblue

stuff work with a tilt back 2-12?

Is it a horizontally aligned 2x12? if so, it will still work even tilted.

xXColaXx · #16 03-20-2011, 01:48 PM

Thanks for all the info, I will definitely look more into it. Did you guys learn these things as you went along as a bassist or was there specific sources that you learned this.

xXColaXx · #17 03-20-2011, 02:02 PM

Ok a question about both speaker size and phasing but I believe still on topic for this thread. If instead of a 4x10 and a 1x15, if I were to have, say, 2 4x10 but the cabs where not identical (different brands or models) would this cause mixed phasing?

SactoBass · #18 03-20-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

Thanks for all the info, I will definitely look more into it. Did you guys learn these things as you went along as a bassist or was there specific sources that you learned this.

I have been playing bass since 1972, and I didn't know squat about bass cabs until I joined Talkbass and discovered how much I didn't know! It was a revelation.

Now I look at some of the stuff being advertised by the so-called "big" companies, and the marketing claims they make, and I just smile and shake my head because I now know better.

Be sure to follow up on the suggested reading that Burningskies suggested. Spend the time. It will be worth it. And you just might come to the realization that I did.......that the Greenboy "fEarful" design is about the best you can get.

Here is the result of me becoming more educated:

I'm getting a pair of 8-ohm LDS (Low Down Sound) nEarful "tall" 15/6's with mirror image baffles, each cab loaded with an Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 15" driver and 18Sound 6NM410 6" mid driver, with a Ralf Patterson crossover at 800 hertz. I will be stacking the cabs on their sides so that the 15's line up vertically, and the two 6" mid drivers will also line up vertically and be close to each other due to mirror image baffles. I plan to pump about 750 watts into each cab.

I will then proceed to rock the northern hemisphere.

will33 · #19 03-20-2011, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXColaXx

Ok a question about both speaker size and phasing but I believe still on topic for this thread. If instead of a 4x10 and a 1x15, if I were to have, say, 2 4x10 but the cabs where not identical (different brands or models) would this cause mixed phasing?

Yup, they're still different speakers operating in the same frequency band. On your way through the FAQ, you'll find Thiele-Small Parameters. Some 20-30 different specifications and measurements that apply to a speaker, size is only one of them.

xXColaXx · #20 03-20-2011, 02:19 PM

At this point, you might as well just explained quantum physics..

I definitely want to be able to be that knowledgeable and that in depth. I would love to know all the aspects of things such as this and I will definitely spend the time learning what I can. I hope it seemed as complicated to everyone else as it does to me at this point, that would show me I have a chance to gaining an understanding.

Also, this may be a tad off topic but where can I find information about "fEarful" stuff. I have not heard of it until this thread, and something tells me I am missing out on something big.

Also, I am not sure what the policy is here on the forums about asking questions within a thread so I am hoping I'm not doing anything wrong. I figured since this is related to the original question it would be ok.