12' KAPPALITE VS DELTALITE

[SeayBass]

doooods-

so I am questing to use my great bag end s12 cabs for bass. I replaced the stock drivers with deltaliteII2512 speakers. I was frustrated with the spiky hi mids and lack of big bottom from the stock drivers- which I think are super guitar speakers, BTW.

I am very pleased by the bottom I am getting from these Deltalites. one problem definitely solved...
Before I go to the effort of buying a Kappalite 3012HO - or a peavey or whatever- I am wondering if anyone can tell me how the 2 compare. I do like the bottom from the Deltalite, but I'd like to hear warmer mid range, and a richer more organic sound. I do know that amps/preamps will affect this greatly. I am not really asking for amp opinions. I am hoping that some of us have tried the Kapplites and Deltalites back to back and can describe me the differences. On Paper, the Kappalite looks like it will have a bit more in the warm low mid area, but perhaps lack some oomph down low.

the S12 box is 18x15x17 or so, and has a 2" rear vent hole (flared both sides).


any advice? thanks in advance-

[NoGraveConcern]

It would help to know the exact internal volume and tuning of the box before throwing drivers into it. From there you could model the two and see how much low end sensitivity you are actually giving up. It may not be much.

From those dimensions the box is on the small side of acceptable for the 2512 and the large side for the 3012. A single 2" port tube is way too small, and I know you said it was flared, but 4" w/ flared ends would be a good minimum port dia for these drivers which have the capability of actually moving some air.

[SeayBass]

15"h x 18"w x 15"d external. 3/4 ply. there's a ~1.5" recess on speaker side, so I'm guessing the internals at 14.25"h x 17.25"w x 12.75"d. so like ~1.814 cubic feet inside. Minimal damping material. No tweeter.

I have been using 'bass box pro' to get an idea of what will and won't work in the box, but I don't necessarily know what my eyes are hearing- if you know what I mean.

[craig.p]

What is the port length, or is it just a hole cut into the cab's rear wall?

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by SeayBass

15"h x 18"w x 15"d external. 3/4 ply. there's a ~1.5" recess on speaker side, so I'm guessing the internals at 14.25"h x 17.25"w x 12.75"d. so like ~1.814 cubic feet inside. Minimal damping material. No tweeter.

You do realize that you only subtracted for ONE piece of plywood in each dimension but there are actually TWO plywood panels in thickness need to be subtracted for each?

Also, need to make sure bracing and driver incursions are subtracted, and any PORT area (whether shelf or tubes).

I have been using 'bass box pro' to get an idea of what will and won't work in the box, but I don't necessarily know what my eyes are hearing- if you know what I mean.

Big part of doing woofer stuff, for sure. Also looking at the datasheets for the FR above 200 Hz tells more. Too bad Eminence doesn't have off-axis info included just to inform people newer at this that a lot of that on-axis response isn't as important as one would suppose. Though I suppose it would just confuse many, and outside Basscabland, designers are going to be using measurment equipment anyway.

[dhomer]

Originally Posted by SeayBass

I have been using 'bass box pro' to get an idea of what will and won't work in the box, but I don't necessarily know what my eyes are hearing- if you know what I mean.

Maybe I can help... Your software simulation should graphically show what the system will do under 500Hz. The most important line on the graph is "0dB".. Under an "optimum" vented alignment, the response curve will be maximally flat at or very near 0dB. Pay attention to where the response line turns downward. Follow that line until you intersect w/-3dB.. This should give you a good idea about the cab's low-end extension.. A -3dB in the high 40's would be considered a good candidate for our purpose. If it models significantly lower than that, you're delving into the subsonic.. often times not a good thing onstage.. If -3dB is closer to 100Hz or so, don't expect E's or B's to perform well..

Getting back to the significance of that 0dB line.. Sometimes your model will show the response line a few dB's above the 0 line. A little bit might actually be desirable. A one dB or so "hump" between 60 and 150Hz or so kinda helps "fill" or "round out" the bottom end a bit.. I guess you could call it "warmth". If that curve humps over 3dB, that cab's gonna boom.. me I hate boom...lol... In other cases in order to deepen the low-end extension, you'll find the response graph of the bottom octave a few dB's under that line.. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you'll have to compensate w/EQ to bring the bass response back up..

One thing you'll want to keep in mind as you're modeling, you will want the response between 60-90Hz high and even.. This is the first harmonic on the B and E strings, and this will go a long way towards a successful result..

Maybe the engineers can elaborate further, but this ought to be a starting point

[SeayBass]

Originally Posted by craig.p

What is the port length, or is it just a hole cut into the cab's rear wall?

It would be '2 flush ends' just a hole, but it's a rounded hole on both sides. So I assume it behaves like a .75" '2 flared' port... Please correct me if I am wrong about that-

[SeayBass]

Originally Posted by greenboy

You do realize that you only subtracted for ONE piece of plywood in each dimension but there are actually TWO plywood panels in thickness need to be subtracted for each?

Doh!!

Originally Posted by greenboy

Also, need to make sure bracing and driver incursions are subtracted, and any PORT area (whether shelf or tubes).

little or no bracing. the port is just a rounded hole...

driver is a big ole 12 incher. So I guess we're down to something like 1 cu ft. ?

[SeayBass]

Originally Posted by dhomer

Maybe I can help... Your software simulation should graphically show what the system will do under 500Hz. The most important line on the graph is "0dB".. Under an "optimum" vented alignment, the response curve will be maximally flat at or very near 0dB. Pay attention to where the response line turns downward. Follow that line until you intersect w/-3dB.. This should give you a good idea about the cab's low-end extension.. A -3dB in the high 40's would be considered a good candidate for our purpose. If it models significantly lower than that, you're delving into the subsonic.. often times not a good thing onstage.. If -3dB is closer to 100Hz or so, don't expect E's or B's to perform well..

Getting back to the significance of that 0dB line.. Sometimes your model will show the response line a few dB's above the 0 line. A little bit might actually be desirable. A one dB or so "hump" between 60 and 150Hz or so kinda helps "fill" or "round out" the bottom end a bit.. I guess you could call it "warmth". If that curve humps over 3dB, that cab's gonna boom.. me I hate boom...lol... In other cases in order to deepen the low-end extension, you'll find the response graph of the bottom octave a few dB's under that line.. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you'll have to compensate w/EQ to bring the bass response back up..

One thing you'll want to keep in mind as you're modeling, you will want the response between 60-90Hz high and even.. This is the first harmonic on the B and E strings, and this will go a long way towards a successful result..

Maybe the engineers can elaborate further, but this ought to be a starting point

well the Deltalite 12 definitely performs in the lower register. It's 60-90Hz is kickin- and I'd call it 'fat' BTW. The warmy mids are what I am seeking (without losing the 'fat'), and the Deltalite- on paper- has a bit of a scoop there. It drops between the 100Hz mark and bottoms around 300Hz, then climbs to 1kHz, and jumps to 2.5k-3.5kHz.

kappalite 3012HO

deltalite II 2512

both-

[NoGraveConcern]

It's hard to say what that port equates to. Typically you ignore the flare lengths and measure the length of the parallel portion of the tube. If it's a flared 3/4" thick piece of wood there is no parallel tube.

Doesn't matter much anyway since porting in the manner inadequate. You should plan to buy a 4" port tube and cut this hole out larger.

Driver displacement on a Deltalite II 2512 is 86.4 cu in / 1.42 liters / .050 cu ft

Driver displacement on a Kapalite 3012HO is 93.6 cu in / 1.53 liters / .054 cu ft

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by SeayBass

well the Deltalite 12 definitely performs in the lower register.

That chart is flawed, as it doesn't consider driver displacement. Doing so the results predicted above are unattainable. A much more accurate chart is a maximum SPL that considers both the driver thermal capacity and displacement. Here the 3012HO (red) clearly outperforms the 2512 (blue). I would use the 2512 if I only had 200 watts or less to power it, otherwise the 3012HO rules.

[SeayBass]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

That chart is flawed, as it doesn't consider driver displacement. Doing so the results predicted above are unattainable. A much more accurate chart is a maximum SPL that considers both the driver thermal capacity and displacement. Here the 3012HO (red) clearly outperforms the 2512 (blue). I would use the 2512 if I only had 200 watts or less to power it, otherwise the 3012HO rules.

3012HO rules, and so do you! This is very real help, and I am very grateful. (and now I am hip to BFM- thanks for that, too.)

[rpsands]

Anyone who uses one of those 3012HOs, I highly recommend you be able to boost the bass in a targeted fashion --

I really like ~125hz or so centered bass control (or semi-parametric) on the 3012HO cabs. They're just not fat enough by nature, very smooth bottom.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Anyone who uses one of those 3012HOs, I highly recommend you be able to boost the bass in a targeted fashion --

I really like ~125hz or so centered bass control (or semi-parametric) on the 3012HO cabs. They're just not fat enough by nature, very smooth bottom.

+1 I usually bump up a little at 100Hz

[Petebass]

I actually do the same with my Deltalite 2512's, but only when there's no PA support. A small cut at 2k also helps smooth things out.

[SeayBass]

well for those of you still watching this one-
With my instruments and gear, there is a hollow quality to the sound of the Deltalite that drove me to start this thread and, thanks to the great advice and help from you talkbassers, purchase the Kappalite 3012HO.
I popped in a Kappalite 3012HO into the cabinet (speakerhardware.com), and A-B'ed it with the Deltalite for a few minutes. I used a preamp (joe meek 6q if you care) and a crown xti 2000 power amp- single channel ~475W@8ohms to power them. I just plugged in from cab A to cab B.

First impression-
It gives me what I was looking for. It is more articulate, giving me more vocal colors. With the recommended bump in EQ on the LF, the Kappa dials in just fine. It is fully capable of thumping out the low B. The Deltalite does not offer the same evenness through the mid range, though it gets up a scooch higher.
lows-
The Deltalite is innately bigger on the bottom than the Kappalite. However, with this tiny cab and a 2" hole out the back, the Delta will buckle the cab at loud volumes, and the port gets noisy when it does. I assume this is because of the xmax, air moving, and the port- which spits air when the delta thumps it.
Deltalite has a lower power rating than the Kappalite (250W vs 450W). The Kappa plays nicer with the cab; again, I assume because it's not getting the same relative power as the Delta, and causing the port to get busy (and noisy). I doubt I'll ever ask this little cab to crank 1000W on a gig, so I may never find out when the Kappalite will make the port spit.
highs-
The Kappa just won't give me the the high stuff above its rated 3.5kHz.
The Delta goes a bit further into the high frequencies, but it's more scooped (mids) and harsher (hi-mids) on my beat-up-old ears. I'd say if you need a hifi, full frequency sound, then both the Deltalite and Kappalite (or any other 12" speaker for that matter) require an additional driver to get you up into the 5kHz+. The Delta gives enough highs to slap happily, but not enough to get the contemporary full range hifi e-bass sound. I am happy slapping on the Kappalite, but it's old school- like me.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by SeayBass

However, with this tiny cab and a 2" hole out the back, the Delta will buckle the cab at loud volumes, and the port gets noisy when it does.

A 2 inch port is woefully too small for a twelve. The smallest size that should be used with a twelve is four inch, and then only with up to perhaps 200w. That fact, along with the lack of bracing, calls into question the basic design of the cab. Let me guess, it's not lined either....
As for the highs, no twelve is worth diddly above 2kHz. Ignore manufacturer on-axis response plots, they're to the real world as mammary glands are to a bull. If the 3012 seems lacking, it isn't, you just need a midrange driver.

[SeayBass]

that 2" port makes as much noise as the speaker when it pumps! I'll keep the 4" standard in mind for future use.

brings me to 2 more questions-
1. Am I right to think/hear that I am losing some LF projection when the (rear) port is shooting it out the back?

2. is high Xmax the main mover of air? so if we used say a 3012LF (xmax 9mm), it would be even more challenged?

thanks-

[rpsands]

You're losing tons of LF projection by having the port be undersized for the displacement of the woofer. Minimum of a 4" flared port or 5" non-flared port for the 3012HO. 3" flared for the deltalite, 4" non-flared, MINIMUM (more is better).

Where the port is makes no difference.

Displacement is the mover of air, but when using the same sized woofer, xmax factors in.

One interesting thing is that tuning frequency is a big factor when air movement out of ports is concerned. A tuning frequency that is too high causes a woofer to enter higher excursion earlier below the tuning frequency, which causes more air movement, which causes more port chuffing.

I believe that there is some way to figure it out but I believe that port chuffing impacts the perceived frequency of the port tuning as well.

So be sure you're tuned right and have enough port area.

[MuzikMan]

The area of the port is important. You should fix it. One option is to add three more 2" ports, giving you roughly the same area as a single 4" port. Of course the lengths would have to be adjusted. FWIW it doesn't matter what side of the cab the ports are on, they don't even all have to be on the same side! Just be sure to keep them at least a port width away from any corners or directly behind the driver.