"2 cabs enter..." 212 (3012HOs) vs. 15/6 (3015LF & 6ND410)

[iualum]

New price would probably be pretty close (no x-over required for the 212). 212 would be a bit larger/heavier, but still very manageable. The 15/6 definitely wins freq response handily: 40Hz-8kHz to 51Hz-3.5kHz. 15/6 wins the Vd, too, 845 to 660. Sensitivity is all 212, though, 103.5 (drivers only). Plus add another 3dB for a 4 ohm cab vs. the 8 ohm 15/6 (unless you got a specially-made 4 ohm 3015LF). Not sure how to calculate the 15/6. The 3015LF reads 99.8 on www.usspeaker.com , but that's incorrect. Is it more like 96? The 6ND410 is 102.

The 15/6 be an 8 ohm. Would it be 570 RMS (450 + 120)? Or 450? The 212 would be a 4 ohm & 800 RMS.

Maybe comes down to whether or not someone likes/needs the greater frequency response?

What do all you cabinet sages think?

[Downunderwonder]

The sensitivity would come into play if you had say a 200W tube amp. Watts are so cheap these days.

[winegamd]

The 15/6 will win on all levels. The sensitivity of the 3012HO you quoted is for a narrow pass band centered around 1800hz. The average spl for the full response is around 96-97db. The 3015 average is 99db for the full spectrum. So the two twelves will not be any more sensitive. The only advantage with 4ohms is power output of your amp, it does not mean anything for the speaker itself, and is a moot point for a speaker comparison. The power handling will be about equal due to the increased xmax of the 3015lf.

The 15/6, however, will play lower, handle transients better, have better dispersion due to the mid, be easier to transport, have a more even and extended response, and have a clearer voice due to the two way design.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by winegamd

The 15/6 will win on all levels. The sensitivity of the 3012HO you quoted is for a narrow pass band centered around 1800hz. The average spl for the full response is around 96-97db. The 3015 average is 99db for the full spectrum. So the two twelves will not be any more sensitive. The only advantage with 4ohms is power output of your amp, it does not mean anything for the speaker itself, and is a moot point for a speaker comparison. The power handling will be about equal due to the increased xmax of the 3015lf.

The 15/6, however, will play lower, handle transients better, have better dispersion due to the mid, be easier to transport, have a more even and extended response, and have a clearer voice due to the two way design.

Are you certain about the 99 SPL on the 3015LF? I really don't think it's accurate.

Regarding the ohms. Doesn't 4 ohms rather than 8 translate into a +3db difference? And doesn't a +3 ohm difference of any sort result in an audible volume increase?

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by iualum

Are you certain about the 99 SPL on the 3015LF? I really don't think it's accurate.

Regarding the ohms. Doesn't 4 ohms rather than 8 translate into a +3db difference? And doesn't a +3 ohm difference of any sort result in an audible volume increase?

The problem is these efficiency measurements are taken differently, and might apply to different frequency ranges. Check out the response in the range of the 3015LF where you are planing to use it. Additionally check out Bass Gear mags measurement of the fEARful 15/6.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

The sensitivity would come into play if you had say a 200W tube amp. Watts are so cheap these days.

I thought the amp wattage output applied to Xmax (& thus potential Vd), but not to sensitivity. Am I misunderstanding?

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by iualum

I thought the amp wattage output applied to Xmax (& thus potential Vd), but not to sensitivity. Am I misunderstanding?

Say you have a 10 watt amp.

Now you have two cabs, both that can handle an honest 10,000 watts each. The first has a sensitivity of 90 db/w/m, and the second has a sensitivity of 100 db/w/m. The one with the higher sensitivity will get louder with the 10 watt amp.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by iualum

What do all you cabinet sages think?

I think a more sensible approach is to consider tone & frequency response - first & foremost - then consider power handling capacity & impedance afterward.

MM

[iualum]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Say you have a 10 watt amp.

Now you have two cabs, both that can handle an honest 10,000 watts each. The first has a sensitivity of 90 db/w/m, and the second has a sensitivity of 100 db/w/m. The one with the higher sensitivity will get louder with the 10 watt amp.

Yes, so fed identical wattage, the driver with the greater sensitivity will be louder. So driver sensitivity isn't a moot point, as winegamd opined, correct? Or again, am I off base?

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by iualum

Yes, so fed identical wattage, the driver with the greater sensitivity will be louder. So driver sensitivity isn't a moot point, as winegamd opined, correct? Or again, am I off base?

Yes and no. I think he was pointing out that even if you have a very sensitive driver, if it comes at the cost of very low Xmax you are giving up something some where else. Sensitivity above a certain frequency doesnt matter to me so much. It is ridiculously easy to get a ton of volume at 3kHz regardless of sensitivity (takes very little power). This is not the case below 100Hz. You have to have a fair bit of displacement to move enough air. Its in that region that you really have to start balancing the trade offs in power, sensitivity, and displacement.

[Chef]

Another thing to consider is:
they won't "sound the same"

They're gonna have different sonic palettes, and you may, or, may not prefer one over the other.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Chef

Another thing to consider is:
they won't "sound the same"

They're gonna have different sonic palettes, and you may, or, may not prefer one over the other.

Absolutely. Its the difference between liking chocolate ice cream over vanilla.

[Chef]

The LF+mid driver does things differently than "traditional bass speakers/cabs,"
which the HO's will sound much more akin to.

So, if you're a fan of the "traditional paper drivers being pushed, and, breaking up a bit" thing...and I am...you may not care for the LF thing.

I have tried several iterations of the LF thing, and never 100% bonded with it.

Clearly, there are plenty of folks that do, so, it's neither "good nor bad," but, something you should audition before you buy, if at all possible.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Chef

Another thing to consider is:
they won't "sound the same"

They're gonna have different sonic palettes, and you may, or, may not prefer one over the other.

100% correct here. Yes.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Chef

The LF+mid driver does things differently than "traditional bass speakers/cabs,"
which the HO's will sound much more akin to.

So, if you're a fan of the "traditional paper drivers being pushed, and, breaking up a bit" thing...and I am...you may not care for the LF thing.

I have tried several iterations of the LF thing, and never 100% bonded with it.

Clearly, there are plenty of folks that do, so, it's neither "good nor bad," but, something you should audition before you buy, if at all possible.

I favor the "breaking up a bit thing" myself. An OD/distortion box would get a "cleaner" cab (like an LF/mid) into the same general ballpark, though, do you think?

[iualum]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

Yes and no. I think he was pointing out that even if you have a very sensitive driver, if it comes at the cost of very low Xmax you are giving up something some where else. Sensitivity above a certain frequency doesnt matter to me so much. It is ridiculously easy to get a ton of volume at 3kHz regardless of sensitivity (takes very little power). This is not the case below 100Hz. You have to have a fair bit of displacement to move enough air. Its in that region that you really have to start balancing the trade offs in power, sensitivity, and displacement.

O.K., but while the HO's Xmax isn't that of an LF, it's still on the high side at 6.2.

[winegamd]

Originally Posted by iualum

Yes, so fed identical wattage, the driver with the greater sensitivity will be louder. So driver sensitivity isn't a moot point, as winegamd opined, correct? Or again, am I off base?

I didnt say sensitivity was a moot point, I said impedence was a moot point. Two totally different things. The +3 db from lowering impedene is due to the mo.re power from the amp. Nothing what so ever to do with the drivers themselves. And that is only if the amp doubles output when the load is halved. Many modern amps dont, so you cant count on 3db. Therefore, moot.

[Chef]

Not for me, no.
Feels different.

ymmv, etc.

Originally Posted by iualum

I favor the "breaking up a bit thing" myself. An OD/distortion box would get a "cleaner" cab (like an LF/mid) into the same general ballpark, though, do you think?

[winegamd]

If you are looking for that classic cone breakup just put an on off switch on the horn of the 15/6/1.

However, if you are looking for a low mid hump (without eq), missing lowend from 150hz down (without eq), cloudy muffled upper mids/lower treble, outragously agressive zingy gank at 2k, and no off axis response, and potential farting out at higher output, then the 2x12 is your cab.

And if you are talking custom cabs, you dont have to settle for the 15/6. Design your own.
There are plenty of crossover calcs, plus a lot of cab builders like Roger and Duke are usually helpful if you have questions. There are hundreds of speakers out there to taylor exactly what you are looking for.

[Chef]

Disagree, IMO, IME.

You can certainly feel about that, but for me, that was not the case.

Originally Posted by winegamd

If you are looking for that classic cone breakup just put an on off switch on the horn of the 15/6/1.