2 x HS210... or... 3 x S15D... or?

[MikeyB]

Requirements: a rig capable of ballsy grunt on the low end, but still articulate. The key is that the rig has to fill the house for small/medium club gigs with no bass in the PA. (100-200 people).

I play 4-string only, fingerstyle, no slap, and focus on articulate, melodic lines that are an integral part of the mix.

I've read a lot of great things about both of these cabs. Haven't heard or played either yet. The Bag Ends sound REALLY intriguing to me, and the tone profile sounds right, but I'm just wondering about enough bottom to fill out the pubs/clubs without PA. No reggae or dub, mind you... just need the right amount of girth.

(...'course the Bag stack wouldn't need to be all 15s... could throw a S12D in there.)

I've had several Bergs and have been mostly happy with them as well. From the posts I've read here about the HS210s I'm pretty sure I will like them better than my current 2 x AE210 setup.

So... are these tonally as similar to each other as I'm thinking? Am I whacked?

Thanks for your input!

-M

[Big String]

Give me a shout if you wanna sell one of the AE210's

[MikeyB]

I might just do that! If I pick up the HS210s I'd probably keep one of my AE210s for the 610 setup.

Hey... I see you've got the RH450 and the F1... how would you compare those? I've gigged my F1 and F500 a bunch so I'm pretty familiar with those.

-M

[mike_v_s]

While the Bag Ends are a bit shy in the low end, they take an eq bump pretty well and I've never really found my tone lacking (personal taste being what it is). I do the 4 string, finger style thing, as well. I would comment that I doubt you'll need 3. My gig as small to medium and I haven't had an issue using just two (I own three).

Mike

[MikeyB]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

While the Bag Ends are a bit shy in the low end, they take an eq bump pretty well and I've never really found my tone lacking (personal taste being what it is). I do the 4 string, finger style thing, as well. I would comment that I doubt you'll need 3. My gig as small to medium and I haven't had an issue using just two (I own three).

Mike

Thanks Mike! Do you have PA support on your small/med gigs?

-Mike

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

I might just do that! If I pick up the HS210s I'd probably keep one of my AE210s for the 610 setup.

Hey... I see you've got the RH450 and the F1... how would you compare those? I've gigged my F1 and F500 a bunch so I'm pretty familiar with those.

-M

The F1/F500 and the AE cabs are quite aggressive in the upper mids, and big down low. If you want more warm push in the low mids, I would keep the cabs and consider a TC RH450 head. The RH450 and AE210 stack will sound quite similar to the F1 with the HS210. Just an idea. Of course, the F500's EQ is so powerful, that a bump up in the low mids around 200hz and a softening in the upper mids around 800hz will also warm and fatten up the AE210's.

If you are convinced you want new cabs, the HS210's would be far superior to the Bag End stack. I gigged the Bag End 15 and 15x stack for many years... great for the time. However, they are very mid voiced (even more than the HS210), heavy for the volume they put out, and they have poorly designed rear ports (basically big holes cut right behind the driver) which do make them a bit more touchy regarding what is behind them (port location doesn't matter at all IF the ports are designed correctly). Nice cabs though, and much darker and warmer than the AE210.

As much as I love the F1/F500, if you are looking for a warmer, fatter, smoother, less aggressive tone, I'd keep those AE's and try a more organically voiced, mid present head like the TC.

[geoffbassist]

3x bag end 15's would be insane!
I would go for 2 bag end 15's. Great rig really loud!

[mike_v_s]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

Thanks Mike! Do you have PA support on your small/med gigs?

-Mike

Nope. I brought all three to my band's first gig (my first in 10 years) and it was really too much. With respect to port and cabinet placement, these have always worked for me, but I haven't used them in a variety of situations, either.

Full disclosure: I bought my first (an older 70's model with the EV driver) on a whim because it was fairly cheap and I wanted to see if it would be a good replacement for the Aguilar 210's I was using. Based on that positive experience, I went about locating another older model with the same driver (fearing they wouldn't sound the same). When I was about to just pop for a new one, I was pointed towards 2 Nahas-built Bag End copies with the same EV driver. I bought both because he wouldn't split them.

Perhaps you could pick up one at a relatively low cost and use it at practice to see if it fits your style? They can be had all day for $300.

Mike

[MikeyB]

Originally Posted by KJung

...the F500's EQ is so powerful, that a bump up in the low mids around 200hz and a softening in the upper mids around 800hz will also warm and fatten up the AE210's.

Yep, my F500 gets me much closer to my tone goal than my F1 with the AE210s.

Originally Posted by KJung

As much as I love the F1/F500, if you are looking for a warmer, fatter, smoother, less aggressive tone, I'd keep those AE's and try a more organically voiced, mid present head like the TC.

I've been struggling a little with the "aggressive" description. I've always considered myself an aggressive player, looking for an aggressive tone (grew up on Rush you know!) and while the hi-mids are cool for grindy aggression, I gots to have my lo-mid grunt.

Sometimes I even think for me it comes down to how much meat I'm getting on the string. I shared bass duties with another guy at church with sausage-fingers... he would always sound so much deeper when playing my bass/rig.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

Yep, my F500 gets me much closer to my tone goal than my F1 with the AE210s.



I've been struggling a little with the "aggressive" description. I've always considered myself an aggressive player, looking for an aggressive tone (grew up on Rush you know!) and while the hi-mids are cool for grindy aggression, I gots to have my lo-mid grunt.

Sometimes I even think for me it comes down to how much meat I'm getting on the string. I shared bass duties with another guy at church with sausage-fingers... he would always sound so much deeper when playing my bass/rig.

Good point on the term 'aggressive' which means different things to different players. Aggressive to me is upper mid grind (which the RH450 doesn't have a lot of). If you are looking for low mid push, and a bit of growl down there, the RH450 kills. However, it is very smooth and polite up top.

[MikeyB]

Originally Posted by mike_v_s

...I was pointed towards 2 Nahas-built Bag End copies with the same EV driver. I bought both because he wouldn't split them.
Mike

Aaaahhh... the legend of the hoary old Nahas lives on!

[MikeyB]

Originally Posted by KJung

Good point on the term 'aggressive' which means different things to different players. Aggressive to me is upper mid grind (which the RH450 doesn't have a lot of). If you are looking for low mid push, and a bit of growl down there, the RH450 kills. However, it is very smooth and polite up top.

Thanks Ken! That description helps me out a lot!

-M

[MikeyB]

How about those RS210 cabinets?

How would you describe them compared to the Bags and HS210s?

Thanks....

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

How about those RS210 cabinets?

How would you describe them compared to the Bags and HS210s?

Thanks....

I find the RS210 VERY similar to my previously owned HS210... mid punchy and tight versus big and bloomy. The top end of the RS210 is sweeter than the HS210 (it has a coax tweeter that is less 'horn-like' sounding than the more traditional horn tweeters in the HS210 and AE210. I didn't own them at the same time, but my feeling is the HS210 would put out a touch more absolute volume before compressing.

Very nice 210, especially for the price. It weighs just a touch less than the HS210.

I put the Bag End SD15, the Berg HS210 and the TC RS210 all in the same general 'warm, punchy' tone universe, versus your more upper mid aggressive and bigger down low AE210. The top end of the RS210 is in-between the 'non x' version of the Bag End 15 and the HS210.

I have a gain matched clip of the AE410 and RS210 on my iComposition home page. The link is in my profile.

Edit: I believe I also have a clip of the RS210 with the RH450 and F1 on my YouTube channel, that you might find interesting.

[MikeyB]

great! Can't check out vids at work, but I'll be checking them out at home...

Thanks again!

-M

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MikeyB

great! Can't check out vids at work, but I'll be checking them out at home...

Thanks again!

-M

Cool. From your tone goal description, the two rigs that really impress me for that kind of 'warm grunt with smooth top end' are:

- 2 x HS210 with the Aguilar AG500 (interestingly, I typically hate that head, but the bloomy Ag low end yin yangs beautifully with the tight, low mid punchy HS210's). Really nice 'old school meets new school' sort of warm, punchy, grunty rig IMO and IME.

- TC RH450 with 2 x RS210... The Ampeg hybrid guys seem to love this rig, and it will sound quite similar to the Ag/Berg rig above..... tight, plenty of low mid push, smooth upper mids, more vintage top end.

Also, given the voicing and EQ power of the RH450, that head with your current AE210's would move you much closer to what you are looking for than the F500.

IMO!

[Big String]

Originally Posted by KJung

The F1/F500 and the AE cabs are quite aggressive in the upper mids, and big down low. If you want more warm push in the low mids, I would keep the cabs and consider a TC RH450 head. The RH450 and AE210 stack will sound quite similar to the F1 with the HS210. Just an idea. Of course, the F500's EQ is so powerful, that a bump up in the low mids around 200hz and a softening in the upper mids around 800hz will also warm and fatten up the AE210's.

If you are convinced you want new cabs, the HS210's would be far superior to the Bag End stack. I gigged the Bag End 15 and 15x stack for many years... great for the time. However, they are very mid voiced (even more than the HS210), heavy for the volume they put out, and they have poorly designed rear ports (basically big holes cut right behind the driver) which do make them a bit more touchy regarding what is behind them (port location doesn't matter at all IF the ports are designed correctly). Nice cabs though, and much darker and warmer than the AE210.

As much as I love the F1/F500, if you are looking for a warmer, fatter, smoother, less aggressive tone, I'd keep those AE's and try a more organically voiced, mid present head like the TC.

MikeyB
Ken really knows this particular gear and I agree with him. I had an HS210 recently not to mention I also has an AE410 and HS410. All are superb cab-bage IMO. For me, I ended up like the AE cabs for most of my gigs which are inside small/med clubs. The HS410 shined on a outside gig with my DB750 pumping it. I also thought the AE210/HS210 was a pretty impressive combo, but it was too much for a club. (note: I do send a signal to the PA top and single subwoofer.)

I'm still contemplating a AE112 to go on the bottom of my AE210, dunno yet. I like the height of that stack, not too tall not too short.

[BIGREDSIX]

Originally Posted by Big String

I like the height of that stack, not too tall not too short.

Here is where I would normally make a height joke at your expense, but I'm feeling generous today, so you get a pass.... this time

[Big String]

Originally Posted by BIGREDSIX

Here is where I would normally make a height joke at your expense, but I'm feeling generous today, so you get a pass.... this time

.... you can sure take it, but you can't dish it out

[MikeyB]

Ken - got a chance to check out your clips and vids - very informative! Thanks! I gotta say I do like what I'm hearing with the TC Electronic gear.

And, as has been said before, all this stuff is diff flavors of GOOD. I do like my AEs, but we're all looking for that tone nirvana, arent' we?

Thanks again... I've got some more thinking to do...

-M