200w tube vs 830w solidstate?

interstatejoe · #1 08-28-2010, 12:34 PM

This may be a stupid question, but I've searched and searched and can't seem to find a solid answer. I just bought my first all tube head, a 200w Traynor YBA-200 from a fellow TBer and while I wait for it to arrive I can't help but wonder how it will compare to my current ss rig: a BBE BMax pre & QSC RMX850 power amp running @ 830w bridged. I'll be using the same cab, a Warwick 411PRO 600w 4x10, but may have to pull my Ampeg fridge out of retirement if need be. I'm not concerned about tone as all I hear is tube = amazing tone, but I'm a bit worried about the volume. I understand that all tube heads have that pleasant warm harmonic distortion when driven hard where as ss amps have nasty clipping distortion which is why tube watts sound louder, but what does that mean in terms of volume? I read somewhere that tube watts are something like 50% louder than ss watts...so will my 200w head be somewhat equal to a 300w ss head?
I'm so confused...

MAMMOTHvolume · #2 08-28-2010, 12:38 PM

traynor wont be as loud as the qsc but it'll still go very loud.

TBird1958 · #3 08-28-2010, 12:45 PM

I have a Traynor YBA 200-2 and really like it, I get nice warm growly tone without a lot of work with the EQ, my single pick up basses sound especially good wth this amp. I also used a GK 1001 RBII that I like a a lot too, no comparison on the volume level - the GK smokes the Traynor by a country mile

carbonfold · #4 08-28-2010, 12:50 PM

In a quick nutshell (because there are TONs of articles on this stuff), watts are watts. You can not argue that...

When a SS amp hits its clipping state, most would agree that it is not very pleasant to the ear. However, when a tube amp is being pushed hard, it's threshold breaks down into more of grit (due to overdriving the tubes) rather than a straight out harsh digital clip that would be in a SS.

SO, because of this, you typically need more SS power to avoid clipping the amplifier into that harsh nasty sound people hate to hear. But, 200 watts are 200 watts. No matter if it is SS or tube. Its all in to "HOW" you are getting to full power potential before crapping out. Tubes have that advantage of sounding pleasant to the ear when you are getting to max potential...... (your ear might like the way it sounds, but you power tubes are hating you tho

)

Again, that is just a nutshell, but you can find countless posts here on TB about the subject that would probably explain it much better

Added:

Also, I've ran these all tube heads: SVT-CL (300w), AD200B (200w), and VB-2 (225w)

In the matter of power, my GB Shuttle 9.0 (900w) solid state is "approx" the same power/volume as the SVT-CL 300w but with more clarity. My AD200B and VB-2 had no chance against it in shear power (but that is my opinion in the sound). And from what I understand, the YBA-200 is a tad under the VB-2 in overall headroom.

Also, if you are wanting more beef, get that fridge out. I think that 410 cab will be alittle weak. You can open that tube amp up much more with that 810 cab.

Nightlyraider · #5 08-28-2010, 12:57 PM

generally speaking, if you double the wattage and your speakers can handle it; your cab will be 3db louder. (going from 100 to 200 watts = 3 more decibels. while going from 1000 to 2000 watts results in the same, 3 more decibels)

I personally would be concerned about the tone in this instance, unless you are looking for a change up. The Traynor is going to sound very little like the RBI you have been running, and the preamp is really what changes your tone. Running through power tubes does add slight nuances, but it will not be near as drastic a change as your preamp switch.

ciubz · #6 08-28-2010, 01:09 PM

Hi, i have a traynor yba 200-II. It really depends on the cabs that you are using, but really this head kills, all you have to do is to keep you r volume above 5, otherwise it ain't gonna open soundwise.

sloasdaylight · #7 08-28-2010, 01:12 PM

Unless you're playing festivals without PA support, a fridge or a 4x10 pushing 200 watts is more than you'll ever need.

interstatejoe · #8 08-28-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightlyraider

I personally would be concerned about the tone in this instance, unless you are looking for a change up. The Traynor is going to sound very little like the RBI you have been running, and the preamp is really what changes your tone. Running through power tubes does add slight nuances, but it will not be near as drastic a change as your preamp switch.

I don't have an RBI, I have a BBE BMax pre. Not looking for the same tone as the pre/power amp at all, in fact I hope to god it gives me a different tone. With the BBE/QSC combo I get an amazing clean tone and I utilize a big muff pedal to add grittyness. Running @ 830w gives me tons of headroom, I used to run the QSC @ 300w but I figured running an 830w amp at 30% is better than running a 300w amp at 95% capacity.

I guess a better title would have been "200w tube vs. 300w SS". Looking to change up my sound a bit as well as simplify my rig....a 40lb all tube head looked mighty appealing compared to my almost 60lb rack. I'm hoping the Traynor will give me some grit when I push it hard so I can skip the big muff too.

carbonfold · #9 08-28-2010, 01:30 PM

I agree, but I wasn't happy with most 410 cabs out there unless you get your hands on a GB Uber 410. But I'm usually up against one guitarist with a 6505+ with an Orange 412, the other in a Mesa Trip Rec with a Bogner 412, and a drummer who doesn't understand the concept of "softer"

I think you would be happy with your 200w and a Fridge. The only problem you might have is missing out on the clear lows and low mids out of a high watt SS (because your not maxing out the threshold as a tube amp). But that all is opinion and taste of your music. I guess you will see what you like when you plug it all up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sloasdaylight

Unless you're playing festivals without PA support, a fridge or a 4x10 pushing 200 watts is more than you'll ever need.

billfitzmaurice · #10 08-28-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by interstatejoe

I'm so confused...

You're not alone there. A watt is a watt is a watt. But tube amps have a natural compression, and 6dB of compression is all it takes for a 200w amp...any 200w amp...to subjectively sound like an 800w amp that has no compression. So the answer is that 200w with tubes can seem to be as loud as 800w SS. OTOH if you have 200w SS a good compressor can make it sound like you have a lot more as well.

interstatejoe · #11 08-28-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbonfold

I agree, but I wasn't happy with most 410 cabs out there unless you get your hands on a GB Uber 410. But I'm usually up against one guitarist with a 6505+ with an Orange 412, the other in a Mesa Trip Rec with a Bogner 412, and a drummer who doesn't understand the concept of "softer"

I think you would be happy with your 200w and a Fridge. The only problem you might have is missing out on the clear lows and low mids out of a high watt SS (because your not maxing out the threshold as a tube amp). But that all is opinion and taste of your music. I guess you will see what you like when you plug it all up.

I'm playing with 2 guitarist; 1 with a Laney VH100R and the other a Peavey 5150, both feeding 412 cabs, and a heavy fisted drummer (are there any drummers who understand the concept of "softer"?).

interstatejoe · #12 08-28-2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You're not alone there. A watt is a watt is a watt. But tube amps have a natural compression, and 6dB of compression is all it takes for a 200w amp...any 200w amp...to subjectively sound like an 800w amp that has no compression. So the answer is that 200w with tubes can seem to be as loud as 800w SS. OTOH if you have 200w SS a good compressor can make it sound like you have a lot more as well.

Ok, this helps a bit. The only compression I was using is the built in compressor on the BBE, which I would imagine is not that great? Either way, I'm sure I'll be happy with the Traynor considering the deal I got on it - bought an Ampeg B2RE for $46.95 shipped from MF during their "glitch" last week, sold it on Ebay for $280 and kicked in the remaining $220 to buy it for $500 shipped from a fellow TBer. So all I'm out of pocket is about $270 if I absolutely hate it.

CDweller · #13 08-28-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You're not alone there. A watt is a watt is a watt. But tube amps have a natural compression, and 6dB of compression is all it takes for a 200w amp...any 200w amp...to subjectively sound like an 800w amp that has no compression. So the answer is that 200w with tubes can seem to be as loud as 800w SS. OTOH if you have 200w SS a good compressor can make it sound like you have a lot more as well.

Thanks for clearing that up, Bill.

BassmanPaul · #14 08-28-2010, 04:12 PM

Living with a full tube amp can be a challenge. It'll not get as loud as your current rig but it may well be loud enough for your needs. I hope you like it.

Paul

dystopiate · #15 08-28-2010, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You're not alone there. A watt is a watt is a watt. But tube amps have a natural compression, and 6dB of compression is all it takes for a 200w amp...any 200w amp...to subjectively sound like an 800w amp that has no compression. So the answer is that 200w with tubes can seem to be as loud as 800w SS. OTOH if you have 200w SS a good compressor can make it sound like you have a lot more as well.

Whoa! I had no idea. Is this because the compressor reduces how much power is going to certain frequencies, allowing other frequencies that we hear better to get more power?

rbbrchkn · #16 08-28-2010, 04:36 PM

I had one of those for about a year and really enjoyed it, they have a great sound and volume wasn't an issue for me, even keeping up with a dual rec halfstack, synths, and super loud drummer.

The best sounds I got were after I swapped out the pre tube in V1 for a JJ or new production Tung-Sol (the Tung-Sol was my favorite). Doing that really takes away the bad harshness of the stock Sovteks, and allows you to drive it harder without taking everybody's head off. There's also a very noticeable difference in the distortion with Sovtek 6550s vs the JJ KT88s that the new ones come with- I noticed more clean headroom and more true low end with the JJ KT88s. I hear Winged =C= KT88s are even better.

The only issue I had with it volume-wise is that the preamp starts to clip way way before the poweramp overdrives. I didn't mind that at all for rock gigs through cabs with the tweeters off- it gives texture to your sound--but the first pop/soul gig I played with the drums and bass really exposed in a great-sounding room, I was like whoooaah, way too aggressive at a moderate volume level. That said, running a hot preamp signal into the poweramp input (FX return) goes plenty loud and clean and sounds like a million bucks.

I've actually moved down in wattage since (100w V4 head) and have no problem being heard through efficient cabs, even on outdoor festival stages, for stage volume with PA support.

aledeville · #17 08-28-2010, 06:23 PM

Watt is watt, but you can get even more than 200W out of an 200W tube amplifier. However, there is no chance to get 850W out of a 850W SS amp.
That's why "tube-watts" seem to be louder.

interstatejoe · #18 08-28-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aledeville

Watt is watt, but you can get even more than 200W out of an 200W tube amplifier. However, there is no chance to get 850W out of a 850W SS amp.
That's why "tube-watts" seem to be louder.

Meaning when you push a tube amp past 200w it will still sound good because of harmonic distortion vs when you push an 850w ss amp to say 800w it starts sounding bad because of clipping...right?

panama · #19 08-28-2010, 07:01 PM

200 watts is more than enough. Don't worry about it.

billfitzmaurice · #20 08-28-2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dystopiate

Whoa! I had no idea. Is this because the compressor reduces how much power is going to certain frequencies, allowing other frequencies that we hear better to get more power?

A compressor tames signal peaks that otherwise would cause the amp and speakers both to distort, and that allows less powerful portions of the signal to go louder and literally fatten up the sound, making it fuller and subjectively louder. Tubes do this on their own, with no need for an external compressor. Some of the most valued studio tools are tube driven compressors, which work better than SS compressors. Google 'Fairchild Compressor'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by interstatejoe

Meaning when you push a tube amp past 200w it will still sound good because of harmonic distortion vs when you push an 850w ss amp to say 800w it starts sounding bad because of clipping...right?

Harmonic distortion and clipping are very nearly the same thing. The problem with SS is that it very quickly goes from very clean to very dirty. The inherent compression of tubes eases that transition.