212 cab question

Holliwood · #1 10-07-2011, 06:11 PM

KK

First off, I have my amp.
Got a great deal on a gently used Yorkville BM400 combo with 1 15" and tweeter.
The head has everything I need AND it is easily removed from the combo cab. Just 4 screws(spaced at 2 standard rack spaces), and out she popped, fully encased in metal no less.
Amp is 4 ohm min which will accommodate 2X 8 ohm 210's or 212's.

Now to the question.
I'm still wanting a 210 or 212 vertical stack.
WHY are almost all 212's set up with the drivers staggered?
Are there any dispersion issues with this arrangement as there are with side by side cabs?
Why are 210's never set up this way?

will33 · #2 10-07-2011, 06:26 PM

Some it's because they use the same box they use to make their 410 cabs and they have to mount them staggered to fit. Some probably just for looks. None because it's the best design. There are a couple vert. 212's out there. I know Genz makes one, GK either does or used to, maybe others, not sure. Could always make one.

BTW, I've played a couple yorkvilles like your before, they're nice amps.

jnewmark · #3 10-07-2011, 06:26 PM

Staggered is ok but not optimal; vertical is the best. The Genz Benz Neox 212T is vertical. I think most are staggered in order to make the cab a tad smaller for some reason.

billfitzmaurice · #4 10-07-2011, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holliwood

WHY are almost all 212's set up with the drivers staggered?

Cosmetics. Narrow cabs 'look funny' with wide heads atop them. You can make a vertical 2x12 without it being quite narrow, G-B and TC do.

will33 · #5 10-07-2011, 06:40 PM

As for your dispersion question, the narrower the sound source, the better the dispersion so a staggered and tightly packed 210 may have about the dispersion of a 15, the 212 maybe that of an 18. You'll still get comb filtering though.

Holliwood · #6 10-07-2011, 06:43 PM

Cosmetics..yes. ease of construction...yes.
All makes sense.

I just keep thinking, arguably 3 of the best 212 sounding cabs out there, the GB Uber bass 212, the Epifani UL2 212 and the Avatar have that staggered arrangement.
Can't be that bad.
Would these very reputable companies have done it this way if there was such an obviously superior way?

I intend to make some custom cabs and I'm trying to take cues from production cabs as well as recommendations from all of you.

I did see some very nice production 212's that were not staggered, GB Neox 212T

GrowlerBox · #7 10-07-2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holliwood

Can't be that bad

=/= best.

will33 · #8 10-07-2011, 06:56 PM

In production cabs, looks and low production costs trump the technically right way everytime. If what looks familiar, even if it is a less than optimal design moves more product out the door, it wins. Unfortunately, a lot of people shop with their eyes. I do to, that's why I don't have any markbass stuff.

If you can diy, you can get what you want, without worrying about having to sell 999 more of them to other people.

GrowlerBox · #9 10-07-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will33

I do to, that's why I don't have any markbass stuff.

Oh no you di'n't.

billfitzmaurice · #10 10-07-2011, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holliwood

Would these very reputable companies have done it this way if there was such an obviously superior way?

Because unless you have a very good understanding of how loudspeakers work it's not the least bit obvious.

If you rely purely on intuition you'll likely think that drivers placed side by side will have the widest dispersion. Intuition is wrong, though not by 180 degrees, but by 90 degrees.

As an example, column PA speakers were offered by virtually every manufacturer in the 60s. By 1975 they had disappeared, because buyers didn't understand why or how a tall column worked better than cabs placed side by side. Columns were replaced by trapezoid cluster array cabs, not because they were better, but because that's what the customers wanted.

335guy · #11 10-08-2011, 07:38 PM

What's also odd, is that when Fender came out with their multiple driver cabinet designs ( not combos ), they most often intended them to be used in the horizontal manner. Note how Fender used the kick back legs on the sides and the head bolts for attaching the heads. Then, a little later in the 60's, guys were standing them up the tall way, probably for a couple of reasons. Easier to reach the head controls and it looked "cooler". I know that's what we did with our Bassman, Bandmaster and Showman heads and cabs. Eventually, Fender included the "stand them up tall ways" in their sales literature. I doubt ever did Fender consider they may sound better with the drivers aligned vertically rather than horizontally. I think their move from horizontal to vertical was purely market driven. It wasn't until the 70's that Fender and many other cabinet makers where building cabs with diagonally aligned drivers. In the early 60's, nearly all the separate head/cab amps where horizontal. Then, in the mid 60's, they began standing them up for vertical driver alignment. They were onto something and didn't even know it.

Holliwood · #12 10-08-2011, 08:15 PM

I read some where, I think it was a post by Billfitz, that the drivers should be aligned vertically but slightly off center.
Why is this better?

billfitzmaurice · #13 10-08-2011, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holliwood

I read some where, I think it was a post by Billfitz, that the drivers should be aligned vertically but slightly off center.
Why is this better?

I never posted that. Vertical is almost always better, as it maximizes horizontal dispersion. It can't be vertical and be off-center at the same time, it's either vertical or it's not.

Holliwood · #14 10-10-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

I never posted that. Vertical is almost always better, as it maximizes horizontal dispersion. It can't be vertical and be off-center at the same time, it's either vertical or it's not.

Sorry Bill.
I can't remember exactly who posted it. Went lookin for it but couldn't find it.
Anyway, what i took the post to mean was to align the drivers vertically but not have the pair centered on the baffle. That is to say, have both of them slightly to the left or right of the vertical center of the baffle.

Does this sound reasonable?
What would be the advantage to this?
Only one i can think of is that it would negate some stray waves inside the cab maybe.

pan1k · #15 10-10-2011, 12:54 PM

If you run say a 500 watt head through a 2x12, would it hold up in a band setting? I'm considering downsizing my 8x10 and get this cab I saw used at Sam ash. Its an Aguilar 2x12

will33 · #16 10-10-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan1k

If you run say a 500 watt head through a 2x12, would it hold up in a band setting? I'm considering downsizing my 8x10 and get this cab I saw used at Sam ash. Its an Aguilar 2x12

In most cases it's enough. Haven't played the Aggie but IME most typical 212's can hang with a heavy drummer and the corresponding guitar volume that comes with it. Basically can carry the room at your smallish local bar/club and cover the stage at bigger venues where you're run through the PA.

Depending on the type of music, etc., you may find it coming up a little short on a big outdoor festival type stage where the band is really spread out or trying to fill a bigger room at higher volume. In either of those situations you should have help from the PA but if you're anything like a lot of us, you sometimes have to gig under "less than ideal" conditions. Might want to hang on to the 810 for such an occasion if you're playing rock or heavier music or are in a just plain loud band.

will33 · #17 10-10-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holliwood

Sorry Bill.
I can't remember exactly who posted it. Went lookin for it but couldn't find it.
Anyway, what i took the post to mean was to align the drivers vertically but not have the pair centered on the baffle. That is to say, have both of them slightly to the left or right of the vertical center of the baffle.

Does this sound reasonable?
What would be the advantage to this?
Only one i can think of is that it would negate some stray waves inside the cab maybe.

Staggered drivers have a bit better dispersion vs. side by side if they're tightly clustered where the insides of the drivers overlap (narrower sound source). If they're in opposite corners of a cab where they're about as wide as they would be if placed side by side, there really isn't any advantage.

CTC564 · #18 10-10-2011, 01:41 PM

I have a buddy who plays with an Aguilar 500 SC into a GS112 and it KILLS...I literally could not believe that little "practice amp" could be heard as well as I heard it...

From that experience, I wouldn't have any worries about running a TH500 through a 2x12 cab....

will33 · #19 10-10-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowlerBox

Oh no you di'n't.

Oh yes I did.

That said, I recently got a good deal on an old Tubeworks head which has.....you guessed it.....bright yellow lettering. Now I have to get one of those grey Sharpie's.

woodsideh · #20 10-10-2011, 01:47 PM

Vertical works best for me for sure. I have 2 - SB112 Avatar cabs and 1 - B212 Avatar cab. I prefer the 2 - SB112 cabs stacked so the speakers are vertical to each other. You can find SB112's pretty reasonable on the used market if you look around.