2X10 Combo w/ 4X10 cabinet

[Pilson_fan]

Hello all,

I need some advice as what to buy. I currently play through a Crate 220W head w/ a Carvin 4X10. I´ve had this setup for a looong time, but recently I´ve joined a band that tunes down to B, which means a lot of heavy distorted guitars, and a lot of B-string action for me. I´ve debated adding a 4X10, and buying a head with higher wattage. However, I keep wondering how a 300w + 2X10 combo would work out for me. I´ve searched TB, but ca´nt seem to find a thread on this. The idea is to scrap my Crate head, essentially giving me a 6X10 setup. Plus I get a really cool amp for practicing at home, recording etc. What do you think?

[cchorney]

Bad idea unless you keep the old head and run a split signal (A/B/Y switch) into to amp then 410 on one side and into the 210 combo on the other. Otherwise you will send the same amount of amplified signal to the 210 and to the 410, which means for one to achieve decent volume the other will be 'damaging the cones" loud. Better to keep the head and either add another 410 or get 2 other matching cabs

[Bass_Pounder]

The 2X10 cab of the "combo" would have to be 8 ohms, and the head would need to be able to handle a 2 ohm load.

Hopefully the 4X10 you have is already 4 ohms, if not, you would need a 16 ohm 2X10 to add to it so that all 6 speakers are getting equal power.

[4-string]

While the objections are correct, what you're describing is what most of us have done at some point, and until someone came along educating us we were just as happy with those rigs as we are with our current ones.

If you go that route you could always swap the 4x10 with a 2x10 that matches the combo somewhere down the road.

I would go for a pair of 2x10s and a micro head myself, but it all depends on your tastes and needs and how much you're willing to spend.

JMO.

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

The 2X10 cab of the "combo" would have to be 8 ohms, and the head would need to be able to handle a 2 ohm load.

Hopefully the 4X10 you have is already 4 ohms, if not, you would need a 16 ohm 2X10 to add to it so that all 6 speakers are getting equal power.

An Eden Metro Combo is the only I can think of that would function as described. Safe power into 2 x10's at 8 ohms, with 2 ohm capability to sit atop a 4 ohm 4x10.

[Pilson_fan]

The 2X10 cab of the "combo" would have to be 8 ohms, and the head would need to be able to handle a 2 ohm load.

Hopefully the 4X10 you have is already 4 ohms, if not, you would need a 16 ohm 2X10 to add to it so that all 6 speakers are getting equal power.

Hmm, not quite sure I understand. The 2X10 combos I´ve looked at have inputs for extension speakers. For example the Laney RB7, seems to be the RB9 head in a 2X10 combo, would´nt this imply that the current combo setup has an 8ohm resistance? This would supply the speakers with approx. 150w of power, if I connect my 8ohm 4X10 to the extension speaker input of the combo, would I not draw the full 300W of the amp at 4ohms?

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Pilson_fan

Hmm, not quite sure I understand. The 2X10 combos I´ve looked at have inputs for extension speakers. For example the Laney RB7, seems to be the RB9 head in a 2X10 combo, would´nt this imply that the current combo setup has an 8ohm resistance? This would supply the speakers with approx. 150w of power, if I connect my 8ohm 4X10 to the extension speaker input of the combo, would I not draw the full 300W of the amp at 4ohms?

What you are not understanding is that if you use cabs with equal resistance, the power distribution will off.

A 2X10 only has 2 speakers, while a 4X10 obviously has 4.

Sending each an eaqual share from the amp means that the speakers in the 2X10 are each getting twice the power of the speakers in the 4X10.

It will work, but will be putting strain on the 2X10, possibly blowing that cab.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 which means, the 2x10 would be in constant danger of over excursion. That's bad. Always best to use matched cabs, or at least, "equal" cabs.

[Pilson_fan]

What you are not understanding is that if you use cabs with equal resistance, the power distribution will off.

This is clearly what I did not understand, thanks! FWIW Laney recommends hooking the combo up with a single 15" speaker cab. Does this work because the 15" cab has one speaker as opposed to 4 in my 4X10 cab?

[Bmorefoozler]

And the one speaker has "roughly" the same "goods" to move air that a 2x10 does. With speakers being circles, 2x10 = 1x15.

Not the best combo out there, but worse are used everyday by touring musicians(right or wrong).

[MaddAnthony_59]

Hmmm. I've run 2X10 Combo's with a 4X10 external cab for Years with no damage to any gear. It sounds Great too. Formerly I had an SWR 2X10C (4004 Head with a 2X10 Cab built in) rated at 200 Watts 8 Ohms, 400 Watts 4 Ohms with a WorkingPro 4X10 8 Ohm Cab. It Rocked! Now I have an Eden DC210XLT with an Eden D410XLT cab. Same output as the SWR, but a bit more Convincing!

[RickenBoogie]

Sure, ANY 2 cabs will sound better than either one alone. But, if you push your rig at all, the smaller cab is going to go too far. It's physics. If you never push the 210 hard, then you don't need a 410 with it, another 210 would work just as well.

[Jim Carr]

I have found two very effective ways to combine 210 and 410 cabinets. One requires a two channel power amp/pre plus any two cabs. The other requires a 2 ohm capable head, a 4 ohm 410 and an 8 ohm 210 with the same drivers as the 410. I have done both, and prefer a 4 ohm 410 and 8 ohm 210.

Why? I can use the 4 ohm 410 with the head, just the 210 with the head, or all 610s. The head (an M9 mesa carbine) is lighter and frankly better for my tastes than even a racked Crest CA6 power amp with a tube pre—which sounds nice but weighs over 70lbs.

[MaddAnthony_59]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

Sure, ANY 2 cabs will sound better than either one alone. But, if you push your rig at all, the smaller cab is going to go too far. It's physics. If you never push the 210 hard, then you don't need a 410 with it, another 210 would work just as well.

That's insanity! If a Cab is rated at X Watts at Y Resistance Why exactly is it going to "Blow Up" if you are using it within it's designed range? What did I miss? Where is the "Physics"?

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by MaddAnthony_59

That's insanity! If a Cab is rated at X Watts at Y Resistance Why exactly is it going to "Blow Up" if you are using it within it's designed range? What did I miss? Where is the "Physics"?

You are right. If used within the parameters of its design, the setup will work just fine. TYPICALLY though, another cabinet is added to a combo for more volume or more LOW END like the OP. A small volume increase will definitely happen, but if you want more volume, the 210 is in big trouble paired with the 410. The 410 will be just fine while the 210 is always closer to running out of volume. In this particular situation, I suggest the OP keeps the combo for practices and gets something better to handle the low B tuning and loud guitar players.

[MaddAnthony_59]

Personally I think the 2X10 Combo with another Cab under it is the IDEAL rig for flexibility. Assuming you get a combo at 8 Ohms, and connect to an 8 Ohm Cab you are effecively doubling your power. 6 10's will make that Low "B" come to Life! I had a Warwick DarkLord bass tuned to F#, and that setup REALLY shook the ground!

And I don't know where the idea comes from that the number of speakers have to match. I've run everything under the sun under both my SWR 2X10 combo and now my Eden. 2X10's, 2X12's, 4X10's, 1X15, 2X15, and 1X18. I have had Zero equipment failure in 10 years. As long as you don't go under your Amp's minimum resistance or your Cab's maximum wattage turn up without Fear!

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

You are right. If used within the parameters of its design, the setup will work just fine. TYPICALLY though, another cabinet is added to a combo for more volume or more LOW END like the OP. A small volume increase will definitely happen, but if you want more volume, the 210 is in big trouble paired with the 410. The 410 will be just fine while the 210 is always closer to running out of volume. In this particular situation, I suggest the OP keeps the combo for practices and gets something better to handle the low B tuning and loud guitar players.

+1. If everything is equal between the two cabs, the 210 can only handle half the power that the 410 can. At the same impedance, the 410 gets the same power as the 210, which means that you have to stop turning up the volume when the 410 is receiving half the power it could otherwise handle. Which reduces the SPL increase one might think one is going to get from the 2 extra speakers.

On the other hand, folks are likely to put the 210 on top of the stack, so at least you can hear it losing composure and control volume before you kill it.

[MaddAnthony_59]

Originally Posted by JHAz

+1. If everything is equal between the two cabs, the 210 can only handle half the power that the 410 can. At the same impedance, the 410 gets the same power as the 210, which means that you have to stop turning up the volume when the 410 is receiving half the power it could otherwise handle. Which reduces the SPL increase one might think one is going to get from the 2 extra speakers.

On the other hand, folks are likely to put the 210 on top of the stack, so at least you can hear it losing composure and control volume before you kill it.

But things are Not Equal. The 2 speakers in the 2X10 cab are recieving 2X Watts at Double the resistance per speaker. And I do put the 2X10 Combo on top...

[Tractorr]

What is your Carvin 4X10 rated at? The simple solution may be to just buy a stronger head and use the same cab (if the cab can handle the extra wattage). 220 Watts is really not all that much to reproduce a B string.

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by MaddAnthony_59

But things are Not Equal. The 2 speakers in the 2X10 cab are recieving 2X Watts at Double the resistance per speaker. And I do put the 2X10 Combo on top...

If you'll read the rest of what I wrote, you'll see this is exactly what I meant.

To break it on down, for this purpose, "all things equal" means each of the 6 ten inch speakers is the same design, the 410 and 210 provide the same effective internal air volume per speaker, and the cabinets are tuned the same.

The speakers run out of gas at some point (start farting out). Each individual driver (speaker) starts running out of gas at the same point. The cab with 2 speakers receiving the same wattage as the cab with 4 speakers will, by definition, start running out of gas at one half the power that the cab with 4 speakers will, because each speaker can only do what it can do.

You can't turn the 410 up more without overdriving/causing nasty sounds from/destroying the 210, so your max power per cab just became one half of the max power of the 410.

For many this will work because we aren't really pushing our speakers to the very limit of what they can do and, more importantly, we likely are pushing them to the point where they are compressing (not getting as much louder as the incoming signal would dictate).

In effect, you are spreading the exact same power you were feeding the 410 to the 6 speakers, giving you a bit more potential SPL. Otherwise, the 210 would add little. Cutting the power in half to the 410 theoretically cuts its output by 3 dB To make up that 3 dB using the same power would require a person to double the speakers, but we have not doubled the speakers. THus, adding a 210 to a 410 arguably (without the compression and othe rissues) yields less output in total, all because we're prevented from using everything the 410 has to give by the fact that the 1210 either sounds awful or explodes if you try to.