2x10s or 2x12s With Deep Low End Extension That Still Retain Punch?

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #1 11-03-2011, 07:06 AM

Curious if there are any 2x10 or 2x12 cabs out there like this. I love the deep lows of my Acme 2x10s, but would love some additional punch. Nearly all of the 2x10s I've played through that had great punch lacked those really extended lows, and I assumed it may be just be a function of that design- that the punch may come with limiting that deep low extension. I'm no amplification whiz though, and I have played through some 4x10s with great punch and deep lows, so I was curious if this was possible.

I wouldn't be averse to a pair of 2x10s if they were either quite light or very compact in design (the TC cabs, shallow Berg cabs, etc.). Thanks.

4-string · #2 11-03-2011, 07:19 AM

Barefaced Big Twin T- serious lows, but punches like crazy if you want it to.

I would guess the fEARful and "nearful" designs are similar?

There are various ideas what punch really is, but it seems that everybody is talking about some kind of mids. To me, punch is in the low mids/upper bass. The Big Twin takes that very well with some eq.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #3 11-03-2011, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4-string

There are various ideas what punch really is...

That's what made me worried about posting this thread- you often get a bunch of guys just posting what their favorite cab/the cab they own is even if they haven't tried out enough stuff to get a good idea of what they're talking about

alexclaber · #4 11-03-2011, 07:33 AM

"Punch" is probably the most confusing word in the bass player's lexicon, which I learnt to my cost some years back. I've found that the most common discrepancy is where some bassists use the word "punch" to describe what I'd normally call "thump" which happens a lot lower down.

Regarding Acmes and "punch", until you're up to very high level the Acmes have plenty of "thump" so I'm guessing you're after that more midrangey "punch" (what I call "punch" - I wish I hadn't started using the quote marks, they're getting too oft-repeated...) - in other words you're wanting a cab that has good midrange output as well as deep lows.

4-string · #5 11-03-2011, 07:36 AM

Trying to visualize the graphic EQ, I would say somewhere between 200-400 or so.

YMMV.

greenboy · #6 11-03-2011, 07:37 AM

A lot of this can actually be described in frequencies of course, if the people doing it can hear the different octaves well:

frequency tables

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #7 11-03-2011, 07:39 AM

Yeah- my definition of punch would be that quick midrange hit to the chest (not just loud or very present midrange). There does need to be a better way to describe it. How's this....close your mouth tightly and really force a "puh" sound to come out of it

alexclaber · #8 11-03-2011, 07:44 AM

Yes, you're on the same page as me with that. But you'd be amazed how many equate "punch" with that "thump" you get from slapping a muted note or stomping on a kickdrum pedal, which is about two octaves lower.

KJung · #9 11-03-2011, 07:49 AM

+1 on the difficulty in defining punch exactly.

When I use that word to describe a rig, I am describing a rig that has a high ratio of lower mids to deep bass. A deep bass extension (like the Acme's) tends to overwhelm the lower mid response, which results in the impression that the cab lacks 'immediacy' at the initial note attack (some call that 'quickness'.. the sense that the rig reacts immediately to the very first instant of the plucking or slapping attack.

So, cabs like the Acme and the various 15/6 type executions, and the Thunderchild and a number of other very nice sounding cabs would be low on the 'punch' scale to me, and unless you have very sophisticated EQ, you probably aren't going to get there.

A cab with a nice low mid bump, and a reasonably high low bass roll-off (like those 3012HO cabs Alex is talking about), or some of the Bergantino AE or HS cabs, the Genz Neox line, etc. all have enough upper bass to sound full and fat, but to not require massive EQ or power to get that nice dose of lower mids 'popping' out of the cab, and for me, naturally slotting the bass into a dense mix.

The Bergantino AE410/210, the Genz Neox212/112, the Berg HS410/210 (and I assume the new HD410/210) and the very nice Baer ML112 are all examples (IMO and IME) of cabs that are very nicely 'musically' voiced to really work in a mix for that type of tone goal.

greenboy · #10 11-03-2011, 07:58 AM

I on the other hand see punch as having enough of everything to always have brutal transient immediacy thoughout the broadband. Partly why I prefer heads that don't have such ridiculous amounts baked in voicing.

smgleitch · #11 11-03-2011, 08:02 AM

What head do you use? I think the head is important in achieving the sound you are after as well. For example I had always wondered what the difference between a MB LMII and the F1 was. After owning both I would say that the LMII is a bit more round and the F1 is faster. To my ears the F1 has a bit more "punch" to it.

I am running that head through a berg "s" stack. That is a HT112S over a HT210S, basicall the same as the berg HT322. By itself the HT210S is a nice cab that I take to practice a lot, but the HT112S I tend not to play a lot by itself. These are great cabs separate, but when you combine the two they are fantastic. To me this combination of cabs or the HT322 coupled with that MB F1 is a very clean, fast rig with great low end thump. I would call it "punchy", but I guess that is JMHO.

I would guess and have heard from others that the wrong head on this rig completely changes the way it sounds and responds. Not that these cabs ever sound bad but that the head is a important piece of the puzzle.

JonnyAngle · #12 11-03-2011, 08:03 AM

210 Build
That's my 210. It gets low.

wcriley · #13 11-03-2011, 08:05 AM

Bryan,
If it means anything to you:
I put my Acme B-2 on Craig's List the morning after my first gig with a fEARful 12/6.

sharpbass · #14 11-03-2011, 08:09 AM

Subscribed. I'm interested in this as well. I have a hard time carrying anything larger than 210's or 112's, but most 210's that Ive been able to try out sound weak in punch.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #15 11-03-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smgleitch

What head do you use? I think the head is important in achieving the sound you are after as well. For example I had always wondered what the difference between a MB LMII and the F1 was. After owning both I would say that the LMII is a bit more round and the F1 is faster. To my ears the F1 has a bit more "punch" to it.

I have/use both a Markbass F1 and a TC RH750.

sharpbass · #16 11-03-2011, 08:21 AM

What about the Bergantino HD 210? I hear people say that they are amazing, but do they have that "Punch" and lows? Also $750 is a bunch of cash for a 210

KJung · #17 11-03-2011, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

I have/use both a Markbass F1 and a TC RH750.

Two great heads. And, to expand on the post above about the 'mix and match', the F1 is a great example. The F1 would match my definition of 'punchy', in that the low end is defined and not overextend, it has a nice even low mid response, and a bit of peaking in the upper mids.

So, reasonably 'flat' through its range (with the low end attenuated enough to not mask that nice low mid fatness), with a little push to the upper mids, and a nice high ratio of low mids versus deep bass.

However, if you use that head with a cab with a very smooth low end response and a deep voicing, the rig can sound 'not punchy'. And, given the low mid control is fixed with a moderate Q and centered quite high at around 400hz, you can't dial that in. So, with the HT cabs mentioned above, that are voiced with a nice natural low mid fatness, that mix works great for a big but still immediate response and tone IME.

With the Epifani 410UL, that seems to actually have a dip in the lower mids, it was wide and big and beautiful sounding in a way, but very hard to 'burp up and punch it up'. The F500, with the semi-parametric low mid control, fixed that pretty well.

The F1 with the Berg AE210.... wonderfully punchy, articulate and still with a nice usagle low end, set absolutely 'out of the box' neutral.

staindbass · #18 11-03-2011, 08:42 AM

i wasnt aware any bass cabs had low frequency extension. most die off rapidly below 70 hz, just where the bass you can feel begins. but just like punch, everyone has a different opinion of low end.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #19 11-03-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staindbass

i wasnt aware any bass cabs had low frequency extension. most die off rapidly below 70 hz, just where the bass you can feel begins. but just like punch, everyone has a different opinion of low end.

Quite a few have deep lows, usually at the cost of efficiency. Acmes are one of the more common ones- they go down to 31hz. I think the Bag End ELF system goes down to 18hz.

anonymous02282011 · #20 11-03-2011, 08:50 AM

The Berg HT212 I used to own had some of the biggest low end extension of any cab I've owned, but in terms of punch and low end extension the fEARful cabs I built this past summer take the cake. I added the 3" shelf port extensions on each cab. To my ears they're the perfect combination of low end extension and punch.

Brian, I'm in the Boston area, so if you ever want to come by and take the fEARfuls for a drive you're welcome to.