2x12 cab + 4x10 cab - Which one on top?

[Gearhead17]

Do whatever you want stacking wise. No matter if the cabs do not blend well together on paper - it's all about how you hear your bass tone. Some people think the 410 and 15 sound great - good for them. If you like it, play it.

I will share my experience with mixing the SAME BRAND bass cabs.

I had an Eden 212xlt and Eden 410XLT that I used to combine at shows and it was just terrible sounding. The tone was strong in the 200hz region, lacked in clarity, had decent low end, and I was unable to control the tones coming out of the cabs. Boosting a little bit around 2khz resulted in the 410 sounding better while the 212 barely did anything with a 2khz boost. I was running both cabs on a power amp (channels A & B), so I was able to set the 212 right before it farted out and was able to set the 410 much louder. After a few shows like that, I got rid of the 212 and got another 410. I was finally able to control the bass tones. Both cabs were loud and if I boosted any knob, I got the same sound out of both speakers. The sound overall was clearer and everything I liked about the 410 was reinforced with another 410.

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

With out a doubt in a medium size room at medium volumes mixing the two cab sizes sounds better to my ears and even the original Ernie Ball Music Man brochure shows a 2x10 cab on top of a 2x12 cab on the front.

Marketing myths. They still show 410's on top of 15's in MANY advertisements. It's just to show the speakers.

Since you like the mixed speaker tone, rock it hard! Certain frequencies will be strengthened and some will drop out when you do this. It just so happens that you like the resulting tone. The reason I say not to combine different brands/sizes of speakers is that tone adjustment can get really difficult. Especially on different stages/venues. It is much easier to adjust a bunch of the same cabinets rather than fight two different cab tones.

You have several chances with your gear to figure out if two of the same or two different cabs sound good together.

[johnk_10]

Originally Posted by B-string

Put the lessor sounding cab facing your drummer.

[4to5to6]

There seems to be three separate questions being debated here and some possible confusion on the application versus general speaker theory. First is wether you should have more than one cab. Second is wether you should mix speaker sizes. Third (my original question) Which type cab should be on top. I appreciate the comments on the first two questions as if it is wrong to have multiple cabs or mix speaker sizes than the third question has no answer. The application is sound shaping, not reproduction.

Thanks for the 3D wave simulation billfitzmaurice
3-D Wave Simulation
This should help answer the first question on multiple speakers and cabs and exactly the stuff I am looking for.
I am looking forward to trying this out. I still can't see the difference between a 8x10 4 ohm cab or two 4x10 8 ohm cabs stacked on top of each other or how 10 inch speakers would have a different phase then 12 inch. I could see interference if mounted in the same cab with out dividers but this is not the case.

And... What about Phil Jones gear? 21 small speakers in one cab:
High Power Bass Cabinet or Travel Bass Speaker Cabinets from Phil Jones | Phil Jones Pure Sound
Sure, all the same size speakers but not one source or parabolic like an array. So much for a point source of sound here! A lot of bass players swear by the sound of PJB stuff.

I still don't see what the difference is between four 2x12 cabs and two each 2x12 and 4x10 other than shaping my bass tone in a positive way. An explanation would be helpful.

Again, I think there needs to be some clarification as there are different designs for different applications (near field, concert sound reinforcement, instrument, etc). Isn't it true that a bass amp is completely different in that it is not reproducing sound like a PA but rather sound shaping?

I know and am keeping in mind here that modern bass amps are almost full range like a PA unlike a guitar amp which is far more tone shaping. I play a lot of classic rock where I need a low-fi precision bass tone to place myself properly in the mix. I also use a fretless Rob Allen a lot where I need full range to get that thuddy upright sound along with those silky high frequencies from my finger sound and the piezios. I also use a Modulus Quantum 5 for a very responsive glassy tone and Pedulla Buzz for a lots of mwah for example. It's tough getting an amp and speakers to work with all these different basses and the Aguilar DB750 with the Music Man cabs seems to work best for my big rig and one or a couple of Epifani UL112 cabs with an EBS Fafner head for my light "carry-in-by-myself-in-one-load" rig. I also have a small pedal board I put together when I just plug in to the board but this is a last option as the speakers in my rig are a huge part of my sound.

[Bass_Pounder]

Mixing speaker sizes, and everything else aside................

Since you like the pairing of the 10's and 12's, and are simply looking for which to put on top - here is my suggestion.

Test each type of cab at high volume and see which one starts to fart out/sound bad first.

I would then put the "weaker" cab on top so that you could more easily hear when the speakers are in distress.

If both cabs seem about equal, then I would just stack them which ever way sounds best to you.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by johnk_10

(not always a grumpy old man, but Walter Mathow is becoming my hero)

[PawleeP]

another great thread.. sounds like any 4 10 or 2 12 could cause off axis problems within either single cab, by itself.. guess it could also depend on the size, shape type, and dampening of the room and eq of your bass, effects and/or amp as well...

[4to5to6]

Yes... this was an interesting thread. I've obviously learned a lot since first posting this many moons ago. I understand the principles and can visiualize the sound waves interacting but this still bugs me.

I just thought about this thread a few weeks ago when I saw a huge new Messa Boogie cab in a store with a single 15 surrounded by four 10s.

Here it is: http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_In...ass1000-LG.htm

It made me think about the validity of the arguements against mixing cabs with different speaker sizes again. If Mesa puts 1x15 and 4x10 in one cab with no offsets, etc. what's the difference of having a 4x10 cab stacked on top of a 1x15 or 2x12 cab?

Here's the specs and a photo if the link doesn't work:

Mesa Boogie Standard PowerHouse 1000 Bass Cabinet:

- 1000 Watts RMS
- 8 or 4 Ohms(Standard)
- 1x15 & 4x10 Custom PowerHouse Bass Speakers
- Custom Mesa Neodymium High Frequency Horn
- Exclusive Tuned Front Ported “Tri-Port” Design
- Player Control Network featuring: Selectable 3-point Crossover (3k/4k/5k), Premium Horn Attenuator, Instant Reset Horn Protection, Speakon & ¼” Inputs and Outputs.

Refering to my OP... I still only rarely use my Musicman HD cabs made by Mark Bass but when I do they sound great no matter how I stack them!

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

Yes... this was an interesting thread. I've obviously learned a lot since first posting this many moons ago. I understand the principles and can visiualize the sound waves interacting but this still bugs me.

I just thought about this thread a few weeks ago when I saw a huge new Messa Boogie cab in a store with a single 15 surrounded by four 10s.

Here it is: http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_In...ass1000-LG.htm

It made me think about the validity of the arguements against mixing cabs with different speaker sizes again. If Mesa puts 1x15 and 4x10 in one cab with no offsets, etc. what's the difference of having a 4x10 cab stacked on top of a 1x15 or 2x12 cab?

Here's the specs and a photo if the link doesn't work:

Mesa Boogie Standard PowerHouse 1000 Bass Cabinet:

- 1000 Watts RMS
- 8 or 4 Ohms(Standard)
- 1x15 & 4x10 Custom PowerHouse Bass Speakers
- Custom Mesa Neodymium High Frequency Horn
- Exclusive Tuned Front Ported “Tri-Port” Design
- Player Control Network featuring: Selectable 3-point Crossover (3k/4k/5k), Premium Horn Attenuator, Instant Reset Horn Protection, Speakon & ¼” Inputs and Outputs.

Refering to my OP... I still only rarely use my Musicman HD cabs made by Mark Bass but when I do they sound great no matter how I stack them!

Mesa has made some great cabs over the years...the Ph1000 was not one of them, sadly...just a dismal mess of a cab

[4to5to6]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

Mesa has made some great cabs over the years...the Ph1000 was not one of them, sadly...just a dismal mess of a cab

I read the reviews on it. Most players seem to like it except for the usual "too heavy" and "too expensive" comments. There was an older version of it that didn't get good reviews. Maybe you are thinking of that one.

[walterw]

really? search "mesa powerhouse 1000" or "-1200" around here and get back to us; consensus is it might be the the one not-so-awesome cab mesa makes.

(compared side by side with their bass 412, i can attest myself it wasn't nearly as good.)

the most recent example

[HitByABlimp]

Originally Posted by B-string

Put the lessor sounding cab facing your drummer.

+1 hahaha
I'd put the heaviest on top
No seriously, as suggested, try both setups and listen what sounds best.

[4to5to6]

Originally Posted by walterw

really? search "mesa powerhouse 1000" or "-1200" around here and get back to us; consensus is it might be the the one not-so-awesome cab mesa makes.

(compared side by side with their bass 412, i can attest myself it wasn't nearly as good.)

the most recent example

Wow! This one is too hot for me to handle! Mesa fans are intense! You're right, that thread is an attack... no doubt about it. Wow! I just looked around again and overall still seems 50/50...

The "which is the best Mesa cab" is irrelevant here. Maybe all those with the pre-conceived idea that you can't mix 12 and 10 speakers are the ones freaking out at this design. Must of been really embarrassing to all the theorists when a well respected bass cab manufacturer came out with this.

Opinions, opinions, opinions... is there one person with some objective facts on mixing cabs with different driver sizes.

Sorry to through more gas on the fire... forget Mesa... the audiophile guys mix drivers a lot. It is very common to see a high end pair of home audiophile speakers with mixed drivers.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ke_setup_easy/

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

Wow! This one is too hot for me to handle! Mesa fans are intense! You're right, that thread is an attack... no doubt about it. Wow! I just looked around again and overall still seems 50/50...

The "which is the best Mesa cab" is irrelevant here. Maybe all those with the pre-conceived idea that you can't mix 12 and 10 speakers are the ones freaking out at this design. Must of been really embarrassing to all the theorists when a well respected bass cab manufacturer came out with this.

Opinions, opinions, opinions... is there one person with some objective facts on mixing cabs with different driver sizes.

Sorry to through more gas on the fire... forget Mesa... the audiophile guys mix drivers a lot. It is very common to see a high end pair of home audiophile speakers with mixed drivers.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ke_setup_easy/

You mean speakers with cross overs in them? Running a bunch of speakers full range is not they way to do it.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

Wow! This one is too hot for me to handle! Mesa fans are intense! You're right, that thread is an attack... no doubt about it. Wow! I just looked around again and overall still seems 50/50...

The "which is the best Mesa cab" is irrelevant here. Maybe all those with the pre-conceived idea that you can't mix 12 and 10 speakers are the ones freaking out at this design. Must of been really embarrassing to all the theorists when a well respected bass cab manufacturer came out with this.

Opinions, opinions, opinions... is there one person with some objective facts on mixing cabs with different driver sizes.

Sorry to through more gas on the fire... forget Mesa... the audiophile guys mix drivers a lot. It is very common to see a high end pair of home audiophile speakers with mixed drivers.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ke_setup_easy/

Please don't bring "audiophile" into this


Mixing drivers is also done in P.A.'s, and in bass cabs - the difference is in the proper use of a crossover so that each speaker is working within it's own area of the frequency spectrum.

Advice was already given by people that actually design speaker cabinets - if that is not good enough, then go ahead and mix your cabs

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by TrevorOfDoom

side by side: more phase issues, and sound shooting straight at your ankles.


stack cabs. always. look at line arrays for inspiration. Stacked cabs have less phase issues

Depends on what sound you're after. If you only want low-end with a nice low-mid bump it's best to go with side-by-side placement because the baffle gets wider and thus lowers the bafflestep frequency giving you a more "phat" sound.
But if your rig also reproduces some mid/highs, line array is an option(vertical stacking) or, keep it to a point-source as much as possible (to avoid phase issues).
If I would stack e.g. 210's, I would want one cab(the bottom one) to only handle the lows to avoid any weird phase issues in the mid/highs.

[Arjank]

Strange concoction

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Arjank

Strange concoction

And a prime example of a cab that sounds like dog sh!t in a wet cardboard box.

Any of Mesa's other big cabs blow this out of the water, it is purely engineering by looks.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

Opinions, opinions, opinions... is there one person with some objective facts on mixing cabs with different driver sizes.

Boy, you're a stubborn lad, are you not? You've already received your "objective facts" from a recognized expert - Bill Fitzmaurice - yet you blew right past him as if he wasn't even there. If you're so determined to do what you want to do, then why even bother posing the question in the first place?

You still haven't learned much since your OP some 19 months ago. Either that, or you're just trolling...

MM

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by 4to5to6

Opinions, opinions, opinions... is there one person with some objective facts on mixing cabs with different driver sizes.

I explained some stuff (with objective facts) in this thread Confusing phase and timing when we say that different size speakers together is bad?