410 makes more bass than 115?...118?

sweetcharlie454 · #1 05-03-2010, 08:39 AM

I went to a music store to trade my peavey 810 for a Hartke 410 and 115.... I wanted to add the 15" thinking it would add more bottom to my sound, but the guy explained to me that..." 410's move more air than 115's and 118's, is this just a myth or proven true?

Burlington · #2 05-03-2010, 08:40 AM

From what I've heard, it is true.

somegeezer · #3 05-03-2010, 08:40 AM

410 would be about equal to a single 20 inch... so it's proven fact

5StringBlues · #4 05-03-2010, 08:42 AM

It's going to depend on the specific cab,but yeah,a 410 cab has 40 inches of speaker surface,a 115 has 15 inches of speaker surface,etc.

More speaker surface = more air mass moved.

Edit: Yeah,yeah,the math's all wrong,but the idea is more speaker surface = more air pushed = more volume.

Not necessarily lower tone tho................

pasta4lnch · #5 05-03-2010, 08:42 AM

I think there is some good info on Phil Jones site about combined surface area and expelling lots of myths about size=bass . . .

i_got_a_mohawk · #6 05-03-2010, 08:46 AM

Firstly, you need to take into account that there are a huge amount of variables when talking about speakers. Diameter is only one of them.

But 4x10 speakers does have a higher surface area than 115

10 inch speaker, r=5.
15 inch speaker, r=7.5
18 inch speaker, r=9

Using A (area) = pi.r^2

A single 10 has an area of ~78.5 inch^2,
A single 15 has an area of ~176.7 inch^2,
A single 18 has an area of ~254.5 inch^2,

so a 4x10 has a speaker area of ~314 inch^2.

But, as said, there are so many other variables to take into account. Also, when you mix different speakers like that you will be introducing interference, which can be destructive in some areas, constructive in the other. Generally I'm not a huge fan of mixing cabs like that.

Biamping is another option to consider, where you send the frequencies below a certain point to one cab and frequencies above that point to another.

i_got_a_mohawk · #7 05-03-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5StringBlues

It's going to depend on the specific cab,but yeah,a 410 cab has 40 inches of speaker surface,a 115 has 15 inches of speaker surface,etc.

More speaker surface = more air mass moved.

It really doesn't

As some geezer pointed out, it's a similar size to a single 20 inch driver:

10 inch driver giving ~78.5 inch^2, 4x 10 inch drivers giving ~314 inch^2

20 inch driver gives an area of ~314 inch^2

BigOldHarry · #8 05-03-2010, 08:51 AM

Is this 2000th or 3000th time this thread has run?

sweetcharlie454 · #9 05-03-2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Biamping is another option to consider, where you send the frequencies below a certain point to one cab and frequencies above that point to another.

I would be biamping if that was the case but i'm almost positive i'mgonna get the 410's

This just prove's the guys that hate 10's wrong, the fact is, 10's are more versatile than any other.

sweetcharlie454 · #10 05-03-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

Is this 2000th or 3000th time this thread has run?

.......sorry man, i'm new.

.

standupright · #11 05-03-2010, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5StringBlues

It's going to depend on the specific cab,but yeah,a 410 cab has 40 inches of speaker surface,a 115 has 15 inches of speaker surface,etc.

More speaker surface = more air mass moved.

i was corrected in previous thread about this.

calculate the area of the circle to get the total speaker surface area.

1 10 inch speaker has an area of 78.54 (rounded up)
1 15 inch speaker has an area of 176.71

EDIT: and it looks like i'm late to the correction party. at least it looks like i got it right this time

Passinwind · #12 05-03-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Firstly, you need to take into account that there are a huge amount of variables when talking about speakers. Diameter is only one of them.

But 4x10 speakers does have a higher surface area than 115

10 inch speaker, r=5.
15 inch speaker, r=7.5
18 inch speaker, r=9

These are all way off. Those dimensions are the bolt centers for mounting, not the cone diameter. Once you get that sorted you need to calculate displacement rather than just surface area. Then you need to factor in power compression and a few other things before you're even close to getting the whole picture.

BigOldHarry · #13 05-03-2010, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetcharlie454

.......sorry man, i'm new.

.

I figured... and the truth is, searching for that exact data would be tricky... It's just funny how often we see the same thread over... and over... and over...

Which bass is best for metal?
Ash or Alder?
Rosewood or Maple?
Best pickup for Metal?
Best amp for Metal?

etc etc etc

But yes - 4x10 puts out more low freqs than a 2x15. But that's not the question you should be asking: Which *sounds* better to your ears. THAT'S the question. Some folks really like the sound of 15". I prefer 10"s, but that's *me*.

Bmorefoozler · #14 05-03-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

It really doesn't

As some geezer pointed out, it's a similar size to a single 20 inch driver:

10 inch driver giving ~78.5 inch^2, 4x 10 inch drivers giving ~314 inch^2

20 inch driver gives an area of ~314 inch^2

The math is easier then this on paper... PI cancels out... it doesn't matter.

4x10 is 4x5^2 or 100pi
1x15= 7.5^2 or roughly 56ish pi... close enough for the purpose is that 2 10" drivers with similar Xmax or cone travel will have roughly the same output to a single 15" with same xmax.
Put it another way, a 15" would have to have roughly twice the cone travel or Xmax to have the same Low end output of a 4x10" but would likely take much more power to get there. Note that PA subs commonly take several hundred watts for a single 15" to put out much more low end then most Bass 4x10's.

i_got_a_mohawk · #15 05-03-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passinwind

These are all way off. Those dimensions are the bolt centers for mounting, not the cone diameter. Once you get that sorted you need to calculate displacement rather than just surface area. Then you need to factor in power compression and a few other things before you're even close to getting the whole picture.

As I said, there are a huge number of variables to consider, that was just to give a rough idea of the differences involved. Considering that if you take ACTUAL area, which isn't a great deal different, it is going to vary somewhat from speaker to speaker, as is the depth, as is sensitivity of the speaker, as is the x-max of the speaker etc etc etc.

So, it just gives a general feel for the differences involved.

Passinwind · #16 05-03-2010, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

As I said, there are a huge number of variables to consider, that was just to give a rough idea of the differences involved. Considering that if you take ACTUAL area, which isn't a great deal different, it is going to vary somewhat from speaker to speaker, as is the depth, as is sensitivity of the speaker, as is the x-max of the speaker etc etc etc.

So, it just gives a general feel for the differences involved.

Understood, but it's a losing proposition any way you slice it.

Jim Carr · #17 05-03-2010, 09:21 AM

Driver size (or total area) does not determine low frequency performance. It is way more complex than that. A search and a bit of reading is recommended. Even the wiki article on woofer is not bad, IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woofer

JimmyM · #18 05-03-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

But yes - 4x10 puts out more low freqs than a 2x15.

not always. depends on the way the cab is built. a sealed 410 won't go as low as a ported 115, for example. however, 410's almost always go twice as loud as a 115. plus you take possible phasing issues into consideration and maybe matching cabs are the way to go.

but a couple 115's can sound awfully sweet so don't rule them out. i have an 810 rig and a 115 x 2 rig and i love them both and use them about equally. plus speakers all have their own character and tones, even if they're the same size. no way you can say a b&c neo 10" sounds like an eminence b810, that's for sure.

i_got_a_mohawk · #19 05-03-2010, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Understood, but it's a losing proposition any way you slice it.

Well, it is the only constant in the matter, which is why I used it.

It is also why I mentioned at the start of my post that the diameter was only one of the many variables involved and the various area's are just to illustrate the point that 410s will have a larger area than a 115.

Bass_Pounder · #20 05-03-2010, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetcharlie454

This just prove's the guys that hate 10's wrong, the fact is, 10's are more versatile than any other.

The only "fact" is that you cannot make a blanket statement like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

But yes - 4x10 puts out more low freqs than a 2x15.

Also a bad blanket statement.

A 2X15 has more surface area than a 4X10. Then if you factor in frequency response, cabinet tuning, and the speakers actual displacement values, you will find your statement is very far from true.