410 vs 210 vertical stack...question

[JimmyM]

I am having an argument about the low end response of these two configs elsewhere on the web. We're talking about a 410 and two 210's with equal specs on the lows, and for this discussion let's forget about mid/high dispersion and only discuss the lows...

HE says the 410 will be better at the lows because the speakers are all gathered closer together than two vertical 210's, which results in better low end response, and the two end drivers in a two 210 vertical stack are too far away from each other to couple.

I say two 210's vertically stacked will be better because the side by side drivers will result in comb filtering, and I think his theory about the two end drivers not coupling is a load.

Who is right?

[chicago_mike]

I dont care for the theory on this one. I have done this both ways on wood, carpet, small, large stages, etc...etc..

I dont like the vertical stacking trend. It doesnt give me the low end and I always endup turning my amp up more and the lows more than if it was stacked the "incorrect" way.

[Johnny Mack]

i agree with both sides, the 410 will act as one large source, combing aside. although i remember the 1/4 wavelength rule, when stacked the very top and bottom speakers may be within that 2.8 ft for coupling at and below 100hz.

knowing you already know all of this, the difference i see is weighing the combing against the added coupling of two more drivers closer to the floor.

everyone obviously has their personal tastes, but knowing yours and mine are similar, we both know stacking works best for us.

[Johnny Mack]

Originally Posted by chicago_mike

I dont care for the theory on this one. I have done this both ways on wood, carpet, small, large stages, etc...etc..

I dont like the vertical stacking trend. It doesnt give me the low end and I always endup turning my amp up more and the lows more than if it was stacked the "incorrect" way.

the low end may "not" be there, because you are hearing a better representation of everything else combined with it being more at ear level.

[Tim1]

Got to go with Chicago Mike on this. The one time I took my two Goliath 210 Juniors to a gig and stacked them vertically I ended up swapping them to horizontal for the same reason.

[VisualShock]

have you thought about coupling to the floor?

a lot of bass you "hear" is actually perceived bass that goes through the floor to get to you. See endless "do i loose bass tilting my amp?" and "do i loose bass putting my amp on casters" threads...

this is why (i feel) the best way to stack conventionally would be a 15 on the bottom, and a 410 on top. the bassier part of the stack is on the floor, while the tops travel at roughly head height into the audience. while using a 2x10 setup, you could go for a 210 on the floor horizontally, and another stood up vertically ontop of it. you get coupling from the floor, but also a little extra height...

[jesso]

Jimmy, with the ammount of posts that you chalk up here every day, how in the name of potatoes do you manage to have in depth arguments about such critical life dilemas as the merits of vertical vs horizontal cabinet stacking? I'm assuming you have a life outside bass?

[murphy]

I know the science that is given,

but at gigs when I tried 210 vertical stack I lost all the meat, bottom end and returned to a horizontal stack and never looked back.
This experiment was in a reggae band.
I can only comment on my perception and not the audiences'

[smogg]

With vertical stacking you get a better idea of what your audience is really hearing. I made the move to in line vertical arrays a few years ago and never looked back. Of course there was a small learning curve to eq correctly but it was worth it. For me at least.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by VisualShock

have you thought about coupling to the floor?

a lot of bass you "hear" is actually perceived bass that goes through the floor to get to you. See endless "do i loose bass tilting my amp?" and "do i loose bass putting my amp on casters" threads...

this is why (i feel) the best way to stack conventionally would be a 15 on the bottom, and a 410 on top. the bassier part of the stack is on the floor, while the tops travel at roughly head height into the audience. while using a 2x10 setup, you could go for a 210 on the floor horizontally, and another stood up vertically ontop of it. you get coupling from the floor, but also a little extra height...

I think this could be closer to the truth of the matter Jimmy. Last year i put my Line 6 studio110 on top of my Ampeg 2x10 combo and linked the two. The sound difference was amazing in the respect i did not loss any bottom end, but it was a clearer sound to me where i was standing, but not so out front as far as the engineer was concerned.
Laws of physics aside on sound waves, we all know position in the room and the surfaces it reflects off, can play a big part in perceived tones.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Who is right?

Neither. In the low end the response of the two will be identical.

[IvanMike]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Neither. In the low end the response of the two will be identical.

that's what specs are for, if they are accurate..........

the increased low end you hear from the 410 (assuming you have the 210 cabs on their side and vertically stacked) will be artificial. What you're really hearing is phase cancellation of highs and mids from the side by side drivers on a horizontal axis, so the lows seem louder to you.

10 - 15 meters off stage in the audience i'm willing to put money on the vertical stack sounding better to the crowd.

[Ric5]

I prefer 2 2x10 cabinets to 1 4x10 cabinet ... it is a lot easier to move ... if you are concerned about low end then run a line out or mike the rig into a big pa system with 18" subs you will have more low end than any bass rig can generate on its own.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Neither. In the low end the response of the two will be identical.

Thank you. Neither is acceptable, too, because the dude was saying that the 410 would be better. I win and I'm king of Usenet

[ExaltBass]

I prefer horizontal stacking of my 2 2x10s (Eden 120XST & XLT). Holds my rack better, easier to move, doesn't look dorky and kicks serious butt over my 4x10 (Bag End Q10XD).

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by IvanMike

the increased low end you hear from the 410 (assuming you have the 210 cabs on their side and vertically stacked) will be artificial. What you're really hearing is phase cancellation of highs and mids from the side by side drivers on a horizontal axis, so the lows seem louder to you.
.

With a 4x10 you're simply not hearing the mids and highs as well, if at all, because you don't hear with your knees and those frequencies are literally passing you by more or less unheard. That makes the low end seem louder, though it isn't. While the phase and dispersion deficiencies of the 4x10 are quite real you don't notice them because you don't hear them. The audience does, but hey, who cares about what the audience hears?

[murphy]

Haha!
As an audience member, I have always enjoyed the sound of a 410 on top of a 15 ,
but never had a chance to hear anyone using a vertical stack?
But, I like to find a place in front of the bass rig, so I can get the full effect.
Bigger gigs, you tend to rely on the PA to soley hear the bass player

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by murphy

Haha!
As an audience member, I have always enjoyed the sound of a 410 on top of a 15 ,

Chances are you'd like a 1x10, high-passed, above a 2x15 or two 1x15s, low-passed, a lot better, either in the audience or or the stage. The 4x10 atop 1x15 is almost iconic, but it's also so wrong.

[Johnny Mack]

Originally Posted by Johnny Mack

the difference i see is weighing the combing against the added coupling of two more drivers closer to the floor.

im quoting myself here, because after thinking about it last night, i realized that if the top and bottom speakers in the vertical stack can couple, then they can also couple the floor within a certain degree, too. and id like to point out again that like billf and myself have said, its not an increase in low end with the traditional 410 setup, its the lack of everything else. i figured as much billf would jump in here and clarify, but im glad he did.

bottom line: low end is the same, so stack vertical to be more audibly accurate by getting rid of the horizontal plane combing and having better mid/high dispertion.

[Jazzman]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The 4x10 atop 1x15 is almost iconic, but it's also so wrong.

YES!!!! You can't say this enough!