4x12 for bass and guitar

kicker · #1 05-22-2010, 05:19 AM

Hi guys

I have a question that could be more in the vein of crying out for guidance and recommendation.
I'm a bass player, always have been, but I somehow fancied the guitar too. Well, the time has come for me to actually play a bit of guitar parts in my band (no, I don't play bass in this band, just keyboards

).
My current rig that i'm using for bass is a 1980 fender bassman 135 and an Acoustis 406 2x15 cab with eminence beta's inside (350W each). I find my Bassman head perfect for guitar with some pedals in front and am actually in search for a 4x12 that would be used primarily for guitar and keyboards.
So the question basically is - is there a 4x12 cab that I could use as a stand alone cab with a guitar and Bassman, but also use it as a 2nd cab with my 2x15 when I play bass.
Please notice that I wont ever be using any high wattage SS or tube amps (svt, svt II pro, sunn 300t, preamp + 1000W power amps or what not), but only and exclusively 100W bass tube amps (Bassman 135 and a mid 70s Ampeg V4B).
Is it possible that there's a 4x12 cab (or speakers) out there for me that could withstand my keyboard, guitar AND bass playing through 100W tube amps?

Cheers and thanks in advance for your posts on this subject

badboy1984 · #2 05-22-2010, 05:25 AM

well, i 'm mainly bass player but sometime play guitar too.

I find it bass cab for guitar just not my taste at all, doesn't seem to give me the guitar sound i want i.e alot of treble and mid.

And vice visa, guitar cab on bass just not enough bass .......

kicker · #3 05-22-2010, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badboy1984

well, i 'm mainly bass player but sometime play guitar too.

I find it bass cab for guitar just not my taste at all, doesn't seem to give me the guitar sound i want i.e alot of treble and mid.

And vice visa, guitar cab on bass just not enough bass .......

Yeah, ofcourse. That sound logical.
But as I mentioned, i would use my 2x15 as a main cab for bass, so I guess thats enough of "normal" bass tone. I just need a guitar cab that would survive my bass playing.

badboy1984 · #4 05-22-2010, 05:35 AM

so basically you need another cab that will match against the 2x15 you got?

In that case alot of 4x12 guitar cab will do. Marshall do nice 4x12 cabs.

blockinlay · #5 05-22-2010, 06:29 AM

Any 412 will work if you match the ohms of your other cab, and also the amp when the cabs are linked together. Too much volume will not be good for low watt rated guitar speakers with the bass though. I'd look for a cab with heavy duty speakers, or change the speakers in a 412 you like to suit. The guitar should do well through any bass speaker. If you are looking for an older cab, Marshall made a 412 with 100watt rated Celestions in the 80's model 1982a&b, Mesa had a half open back cab with two EV's and two Celestions. On a different note, a 50 watt non master tube head cranked through a 412 makes for a killer guitar combination. I was playing a jazz bass last night using a 100watt Marshall non master head through a 412 Marshall 100watt cab at low volume using both a distortion and an overdrive pedal, and it was a tone to die for. I never use that cab or pedals for bass, but I think I'm going to experiment a bit.

kicker · #6 05-22-2010, 06:51 AM

Thanks for your responses.
Yeah, I figured any cab would do, this is actually a speaker question I guess. The most important thing about the cab would be matching ohms with my 2x15 cab (didn't see much 4 ohm 4x12s I must confess)
Off to a search for a suitable 12 inch speaker. Do you think that a 75-100W guitar speaker could take the load of bass+a hundred watter played through them?
As soon as I come up with some info, I'll post it here.

blockinlay · #7 05-22-2010, 07:15 AM

JCM 900 Marshall cabs have a switch on the cabs with two jacks that allow the 412 to be 4 or 16 ohm in mono, or two 212's to be 8ohm in stereo. That's for a set of four 16ohm speakers. Of course you can wire the speakers differently to change the output at the jack too. Others may have double jacks too.

billfitzmaurice · #8 05-22-2010, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badboy1984

In that case alot of 4x12 guitar cab will do. Marshall do nice 4x12 cabs.

Not really. Guitar drivers will fart out at 1/4 to 1/10 the power input that bass drivers will. That's what gives guitar drivers their tone. And the 4x12 for guitar is as relevent today as is the V8 powered 8,000 pound car. The OP should look at a 2x10 or 1x12 guitar cab for use with guitar only.

René_Julien · #9 05-22-2010, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

And the 4x12 for guitar is as relevent today as is the V8 powered 8,000 pound car.

hehe...

Not that earthshaking funny but I could use a new sig.

**IvanMike** · #10 05-22-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

And the 4x12 for guitar is as relevent today as is the V8 powered 8,000 pound car. The OP should look at a 2x10 or 1x12 guitar cab for use with guitar only.

+567,328,988

FWIW, i do find the bag end 1x12 and 2x12 cabs o work equally well for guitar and bass. However, the cabs are kinda clean for guitar if you want that cone cry Bill was alluding to. 1x12 should be fine, especially with 100 watts. tworock makes a great one. at reasonable volume you'll never get a 100 watt tube guitar amp to get "the sound" at least a single twelve will let you push it and the amp harder.

as for keys, put them through the PA. Keys want nice flat response full range cabs - the antithesis of a 4x12

honestjohnny · #11 05-22-2010, 10:33 AM

Bi-amp. Rolls makes a little 2-way crossover so you can send your highs and mids to the 4X12 (or 210 or 112) and your lows to the 2x15. You'll need a power amp for one cab or the other. I'd run bass to x-over, split @ 500, highs to Bassman and 4x12, lows to PA poweramp 300 watts and 2x15. Then I'd change the Betas to 3015's and....

**IvanMike** · #12 05-22-2010, 11:18 AM

i wouldn't biamp personally, not unless you are using cabinets specifically designed to be run in these narrow frequency ranges (you arent)

Calaverasgrande · #13 05-22-2010, 12:27 PM

From what I understand the marshall dual 4x12 with 50 watt head was orignally intended for bass guitar. This was back in the 60's when most guitar amps were 2x12 or 2x10 open back combos. So even at only 120 watts handling per cab, thats 240 watts for two cabs, and closed back, which was unheard of then.
I would grab any 4x12 thats not ported. It should be fine. Of course the ones with higher power handling are gonna be less prone to fart out, but if you are playing Bassmans and V4Bs you arent in clean city anyway.
A 2x12 may be lighter but likely wont pair up with a 2x15 so great.

Big John66 · #14 05-22-2010, 12:44 PM

Many years ago I played bass through a guys Hiwatt 100 and 4x12 cab loaded with EV SRO's. Sounded killer in the classic rock/blues band we had.

He also used that rig for guitar later in a powerpop/punk band. Souned killer there too.

I believe he hauled that amp around with a V-8 powered 8000 pound car. Different strokes and all that, ya know.

billfitzmaurice · #15 05-22-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

From what I understand the marshall dual 4x12 with 50 watt head was orignally intended for bass guitar. .

It was, to keep up with the likes of Fender Twins and Vox AC30s. They remained bass only cabs for about a week, until the first guitar'd player ran through one, and the rest is history. Loaded with the drivers of the day, and considering the abysmal state of PA then, there was some logic to using them. That logic disappeared by the 80s, but that hasn't stopped kiddie band guitar'd players from using them, despite there having been no actual need for them for 30 years.

BadJazz · #16 05-22-2010, 03:06 PM

+1 on the Bag End suggestion.

I have a Deep Red 2x12 that works very well for bass and guitar.
Compact, albeit heavy, and almost indestructible. I've run mine with 2400 watt heads, 2100 watt head (Stewart 2.1), all tube heads, hybrid heads, guitar heads...
Amazing cabs.

Oh, and they make for a very loud lo-fi keyboard rig. No tweeter, but I've run several synths/Rhodes/Wurlys through it and it does the trick.

will33 · #17 05-22-2010, 05:02 PM

I'm another one who says you're going way too big with the guitar cab. I have a bassman135 that's either an 80 or 81, same amp as you. When I figured I had enough other bass amps I started purposing it soley for guitar. First by putting together a 210 openback guitar cab for it and having my tech pull a pair of power tubes and rebias etc. to run on 2 instead of 4. Power is down to 60-65 watts and it's still too loud for some situations. Next up for it is a pair of 112 cabs, one of which will probably stay home most of the time.

The way to get the best out of it is to bring both cabs and plug in the right cab for the instrument being used. Could probably homebrew some footswitch so you don't have to go back there and move cables all the time. Keep the bass cab something big and loud like a 215 and scale the guitar cab down by 1/2 and the two might be in the same realm as far as available volume/how big a gig they can handle. Whatever that can't handle you stick a mic in front of.

kicker · #18 05-23-2010, 03:14 AM

Thank you people, some very interesting points of view made here.
Usefulness of this forum shined through once more.
Keep em coming

rpsands · #19 05-23-2010, 03:21 AM

Honestly, I have had quite some success running modeled guitar into flat cabinets. It sounds good enough for anyone in the audience except guitar tone snobs.

**Sparks55** · #20 05-23-2010, 07:19 AM

Don't recall any references to your PA, but Jeff Beck's tour rig is a small 15-watt Fender Pro Junior combo amp custom-loaded with a Jenson P-10 Alnico (i.e. Fender Super Reverb) mic'd with an old Sennheiser 509. At 20 lbs it sure would lighten your load i(provided you've got PA and monitors).

Mark