70's rock tunes - recorded direct? Cab mic'd? Combination?

**mikeddd** · #1 10-06-2011, 08:14 AM

I really, really like the bass sound on most 70's rock/Top 40 tunes. For example, "Tin Man" by America; that sound just floors me. It may be a "common sound" (P Bass, I think) but give it a good listen through phones or good speakers. It's full and round with nice definition.

Was this tune recorded direct or was the cab mic'd? Possibly a combo of both? I am really curious about this.

In this live video, the bassist is playing a P Bass...and probably it was a P on the record, but the original question still stands. Love this music! I was a child when this was released; I was born 20 years too late. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3fI0mLz3ks

billfitzmaurice · #2 10-06-2011, 08:19 AM

Most were recorded direct.

**mikeddd** · #3 10-06-2011, 08:23 AM

Thanks, Bill. Did most amps have DI's back then, or did the bass go through a pre like an Avalon, then to the board...or did the bass just go straight to the board? Really dig the bass on Tin Man. Listened to the song for 40 minutes on the drive home yesterday.

beans-on-toast · #4 10-06-2011, 08:56 AM

You might find it interesting to check out the classic tracks articles at Mix Magazine.

They sometimes provide details of how the bass was recorded on tracks that they feature. I don't recall seeing Tim Man but there are several 70's songs featured.

**mikeddd** · #5 10-06-2011, 09:19 AM

Wow, what a great resource! Never seen that website before. Will spend half the day reading it, now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

You might find it interesting to check out the classic tracks articles at Mix Magazine.

They sometimes provide details of how the bass was recorded on tracks that they feature. I don't recall seeing Tim Man but there are several 70's songs featured.

JimmyM · #6 10-06-2011, 10:08 AM

While direct recording was used quite often, mic'ed amps were also used quite often, especially when it comes to harder rock. I believe Joe Osborn played most America tracks, and his thing was a Fender Jazz with super dead flats and only the neck pickup used, DI'd and mic'ed with a Fender Concert combo. Ampeg Portaflexes, especially B-15's, were also used extensively back then, too. Definitely a case by case basis.

billfitzmaurice · #7 10-06-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeddd

Thanks, Bill. Did most amps have DI's back then

Very few did, as PA support wasn't used much other than with touring acts. Pre's as we know them today didn't exist either. Mostly the bass was patched right into the board, sometimes using a Y cord or splitter to feed an amp as well for monitoring.

spufman · #8 10-06-2011, 10:43 AM

JimmyM has it. That's the amazing Joe Osborn on Tin Man. This article: Joe Osborn | Vintage Guitar® magazine, has him saying: "Both. At first it was all from the amp, but after the direct box became available, I used both. Eventually, I ended up going direct for everything."

**mikeddd** · #9 10-06-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spufman

JimmyM has it. That's the amazing Joe Osborn on Tin Man. This article: Joe Osborn | Vintage Guitar® magazine, has him saying: "Both. At first it was all from the amp, but after the direct box became available, I used both. Eventually, I ended up going direct for everything."

Spufman, you nailed it solid, man.

Thanks for the link!

beans-on-toast · #10 10-06-2011, 12:08 PM

I have a schematic that an engineer at VOX set me back in the 60's.

It shows a balanced out DI modification for the AC-30 amp. They took the output of the phase inverter through a voltage divider to an XLR connector. There was a similar mod that used a transformer to derive a low impedance balanced line output. This was very rare at the time and not usual to see outside a studio.

I imagine that amps with this mod were used at Abbey Road and Olympic studios.

billfitzmaurice · #11 10-06-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

I have a schematic that an engineer at VOX set me back in the 60's.

It shows a balanced out DI modification for the AC-30 amp. They took the output of the phase inverter through a voltage divider to an XLR connector.

That's a really simple mod, which I started doing to Fenders shortly after the first XLR input mixers appeared on the scene, roughly 1973. I doubt that the schematic you have is from the 60s, AFAIK there were no XLR driven boards then. I didn't see any before the 70s anyway, but I guess Rupert Neve, Les Paul and the like could have been cobbling them up by hand before the manufacturers got on board with it.

beans-on-toast · #12 10-06-2011, 04:14 PM

Well Bill, it would have been more correct if I simply said that it had a three-pin connector on the schematic. This was at the amp end, not the desk.

I just called it an XLR out of habit.

rodl2005 · #13 10-06-2011, 04:43 PM

This just reminded me of our 1st recording.
Ahhhh, the days of cut'n paste with sticky-tape on 1/2" reel to reel tape recorders! That was a fiddly biz

billfitzmaurice · #14 10-06-2011, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

Well Bill, it would have been more correct if I simply said that it had a three-pin connector on the schematic. This was at the amp end, not the desk.

I just called it an XLR out of habit.

Both the amp and desk would have been 3 pin. Some 3 pin balanced connectors were used before XLR, but they were rare. I never saw a balanced mic or mixer for pro-sound in the 60s, though I did see them for broadcasting, and they did use XLRs. Record studios also used balanced mics and desks, but no was was taking Neumann U47s on the road. I still remember buying my first balanced mics, SM 58s, in 1973. I had to convert the pre's on our Shure Vocal Master to use them

rodl2005 · #15 10-06-2011, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Both the amp and desk would have been 3 pin. Some 3 pin balanced connectors were used before XLR, but they were rare. I never saw a balanced mic or mixer for pro-sound in the 60s, though I did see them for broadcasting, and they did use XLRs. Record studios also used balanced mics and desks, but no was was taking Neumann U47s on the road. I still remember buying my first balanced mics, SM 58s, in 1973. I had to convert the pre's on our Shure Vocal Master to use them

73! Is that when SM58's 1st came out?

beans-on-toast · #16 10-07-2011, 07:32 AM

I bought my first SM58 around 1975. We also used to use Sure 556S mics on the road. I still have mine. It was a descent quality balanced mic (looking like the Elvis Shure 55s but smaller). There were adaptors that terminated with a 1/4" plug that went into a Shure mixer and amp and out to two columns.

I suspect that the vox AC-30 mod, at the time, was intended for studio applications.

rodl2005 · #17 10-07-2011, 07:56 AM

I knew the SM58 & 57 were 'industry standards'/been out as long as I could remember, but !?!
I started gigging in about 78 when I was 14 & remember seeing them pretty well around then.
Wow! That's a long time for an electronic device to be in use & unchanged!
SVT......

beans-on-toast · #18 10-07-2011, 08:26 AM

A lot of that old technology still sounds amazing. Look at the organic sound of the Hammond organs, Neumann mics, and old studio preamps. I was recently checking out an RCA OP-6 mic pre. I'm always amazed by the quality that they had so many years ago.

There is a Western Electric low wattage power tube called a 300B that came out in the 1930's that is, as far as many are concerned, never been surpassed. Unfortunately, although they are still in production today, they are too expensive for most folks to afford. Because of the relatively low power output of 8W per tube, the amp has to be matched with very efficient cabs. I've listened to an amp based on these tubes and it really left an impression.

billfitzmaurice · #19 10-07-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodl2005

73! Is that when SM58's 1st came out?

Not much before that. In the 60s the equivalent was the 565, high impedance unbalanced. It was the main stage mic used at Woodstock in '69. It's still around too, but now in a low impedance balanced configuration.

Quote:

I suspect that the vox AC-30 mod, at the time, was intended for studio applications.

Probably, though bizarre. I can't imagine wanting to bypass the speakers with a guitar amp. And that's why DIs on guitar amps are still as rare as fur on chickens.

jeff7bass · #20 10-07-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

While direct recording was used quite often, mic'ed amps were also used quite often, especially when it comes to harder rock. I believe Joe Osborn played most America tracks, and his thing was a Fender Jazz with super dead flats and only the neck pickup used, DI'd and mic'ed with a Fender Concert combo. Ampeg Portaflexes, especially B-15's, were also used extensively back then, too. Definitely a case by case basis.

Jimmy’z got the right answer! Yeah they stuck mics in front of cabs, to the side of cabs, all sorts of crazy stuff! Jimmy page stuck his amp in a phone booth and parked the mic 15 feet away for one song! I think it was the Immigrant Song. They were creators and part of that was experimenting with recording techniques. Sabbath’s Bassplayer recorded the first album with a mic’d 4x12 and one of the 12’s had a blown speaker! When they made enough money to get him a new cab, some of the hard-core fans were pissed because he didn’t have “that sound” anymore!