750 Watt head... how "loud" or powerful is it?

[BassSurfer]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

1. There are two drawbacks...one is if you're a dope, you could easily blow a 410 with 750w, even if they tell you that you won't (easily preventable if you have a little common sense, though). The second is if you like distortion...GK has a "grind" feature and it's easier to get it out of the lower wattage heads.

2. Make no mistake...in a decent sized cab, 480w will rip your head off and get you fired from most venues. In 35 years of playing professionally, including many arena and stadium gigs, I have never needed more than that, and have done quite well with much less most of the time. For all practical purposes, 700w will not be much louder, if at all. Consider that you need 10x your current wattage to be twice as loud using the same cab. 700w to 480w is less than .5x. That said, some folks really like a lot of headroom so they can play loud enough to get their band fired and never distort at all (go figure ), so they go for the higher wattage.

+1 I agree with everything Jimmy has posted here! Very well said sir!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by BassSurfer

+1 I agree with everything Jimmy has posted here! Very well said sir!

So much wrong with that post you are agreeing with that I hardly know where to start

To the OP:

Wattage is only one part of a very important 'formula' for reaching your tone goals at the volume you need. Wattage interacts with the voicing of the head (a head with a deeper low end response combined with less distortion in the midrange will sound 'less loud' than another head with the same wattage rating... or less... that has a good dose of midrange bump and/or midrange warmth/distortion and a tighter more controlled/attenuated low end)., the efficiency of the cab (a low effiency cab that puts out deep low end and is balanced in the midrange can easily take (and often use) 2 to 3 times the power of a typical midrange voiced production cab to reach the same perceived volume), etc., etc. etc.

Wattage needs has VERY little to do with 'playing too loud'. Also, the ridiculously useless and oversimpified concept of 'it takes 10 times the wattage do get twice as loud' is useless information regarding choosing a power level. The 3db of increase volume when approximately doubling the wattage can be HUGE, all other things being equal. However, the most important point is that 'other things are NEVER equal'.

The amount of wattage 'needed' by a given player, and the impact of wattage levels across heads and cab combination is a function of a complex interaction between head voicing, distortion levels, cabinet efficiency and driver quality, technique of the player and tone goals. Saying that 'having more than 'x' amount of watts is silly' is, well 'silly'.

[Munjibunga]

I think the discussion presumes all other things being equal ...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I think the discussion presumes all other things being equal ...

Never is. Even wattage among heads is not comparable, given the HUGE variation in hi passing, midrange distortion, THD levels, etc. When you also take into account the vastly different tapers built into master gain pots, resulting in some heads (assuming maximum clean gain settings) reaching full power with the master at 11 o'clock, and other heads with audiotaper master volume designs not even starting to crank until 1 o'clock or higher, you have a mess trying to compare 'a 500 watt amp to a 200 watt amp'. If you further add the vastly different power management/limiting circuits across amps (with some hard limiting at a certain power level/THD, and others gently compressing with higher distortion levels), you really get into a mess

[B-string]

Actually you will find linear taper pots require more rotation for gain than audio taper.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by B-string

Actually you will find linear taper pots require more rotation for gain than audio taper.

Incorrect. Remember, db's are a log scale. Using a linear taper results in a 'nonlinear' impact on perceived volume. A non-linear (or audiotaper) compensates for the non-linear db scale, resulting in a more 'linear' response.

It is a little confusing, since the 'linear tapers' actually result in non-linear performance.

That really isn't important though. The key is that you CANNOT, IN ANY WAY judge the maximum output of ANY amp with your eyes (i.e., based on the physical position of the master volume)

[Downunderwonder]

So nothing can be compared without putting it next to the other with an a/b box. Ever.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

So nothing can be compared without putting it next to the other with an a/b box. Ever.

If you are talking about the impact of a single thing.... power, then yes, almost impossible to compare without holding most other things constant. And, given that SO much of the impact of a head's performance is 'inside the box' (limiting, high passing, distortion levels, baked in voicing, etc., etc.), even then, it is almost impossible to attribute performance differences based purely on a published power spe when comparing, for example, a 650 watt Glockenklang to a 900 watt TecAmp Puma to a 500 watt Markbass head, etc., etc..

That being said, there is a non zero correlation between published power spec and performance, it is just much lower than most think, even with most other things held constant (IMO and IME).

A good example.... if you have a relatively honestly rated 800 watt head with a huge low end extension (little hi passing) and very clean midrange, with a bit of scoop built in to the inherent voicing, and you are using two 'production' 112 cabs, that head could actually be perceived as putting out less 'volume' than a little 200 watt GK MB200, which is very mid present, has some pleasant (to some) midrange distortion and midrange bump that hits the human ear where it is most sensitive, and will not push those little 112's into power compression.

[SpruceApple]

KDung, do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just into being critical?

[BassSurfer]

Originally Posted by SpruceApple

KDung, do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just into being critical?

Agreed. I usually find your posts very informative with hours and hours worth of readable information. Is everything okay on your end tonight?

Originally Posted by KJung

So much wrong with that post you are agreeing with that I hardly know where to start

To the OP:

Wattage is only one part of a very important 'formula' for reaching your tone goals at the volume you need. Wattage interacts with the voicing of the head (a head with a deeper low end response combined with less distortion in the midrange will sound 'less loud' than another head with the same wattage rating... or less... that has a good dose of midrange bump and/or midrange warmth/distortion and a tighter more controlled/attenuated low end)., the efficiency of the cab (a low effiency cab that puts out deep low end and is balanced in the midrange can easily take (and often use) 2 to 3 times the power of a typical midrange voiced production cab to reach the same perceived volume), etc., etc. etc.

Wattage needs has VERY little to do with 'playing too loud'. Also, the ridiculously useless and oversimpified concept of 'it takes 10 times the wattage do get twice as loud' is useless information regarding choosing a power level. The 3db of increase volume when approximately doubling the wattage can be HUGE, all other things being equal. However, the most important point is that 'other things are NEVER equal'.

The amount of wattage 'needed' by a given player, and the impact of wattage levels across heads and cab combination is a function of a complex interaction between head voicing, distortion levels, cabinet efficiency and driver quality, technique of the player and tone goals. Saying that 'having more than 'x' amount of watts is silly' is, well 'silly'.

We all have our own opinions as well as our own individual beliefs. There is nothing "right" or "wrong" about this topic and or discussion (in the earlier portions of the thread anyway) We may not all be as educated as you in regards to topics such as this. The original poster asked a very simple question and I am sure he now has his answer.

[Gmclachlan]

I would like to chime in about headroom. I have a 2001rb and I will never need another amp. I bought in the TB classifieds for 650 bucks. It's lighter and more reliable than my SVT's. I can run two Mesa 1200 8x10's, or a 4x10, carefully. I don't use the distortion side, it doesn't sound great, but the amp provides nearly limitless clean power and powerful EQ, and any decent gain pedal, like a $100 VT Bass, would get you a solid distorted tone at any volume.
I would go with 1001rb, especially with the small price difference, and then investigate your cabinet needs as they come up.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KJung

So much wrong with that post you are agreeing with that I hardly know where to start

How dare you criticize my genius!

To the OP:

Wattage is only one part of a very important 'formula' for reaching your tone goals at the volume you need. Wattage interacts with the voicing of the head (a head with a deeper low end response combined with less distortion in the midrange will sound 'less loud' than another head with the same wattage rating... or less... that has a good dose of midrange bump and/or midrange warmth/distortion and a tighter more controlled/attenuated low end)., the efficiency of the cab (a low effiency cab that puts out deep low end and is balanced in the midrange can easily take (and often use) 2 to 3 times the power of a typical midrange voiced production cab to reach the same perceived volume), etc., etc. etc.

While this is all true, as pointed out to you, I was assuming "all things being equal." I even mentioned the cab being equal, and I find the pre on all RB series heads pretty similar. So clearly I was referring to this case alone, and not other scenarios involving all the other stuff on the market.

Wattage needs has VERY little to do with 'playing too loud'. Also, the ridiculously useless and oversimpified concept of 'it takes 10 times the wattage do get twice as loud' is useless information regarding choosing a power level. The 3db of increase volume when approximately doubling the wattage can be HUGE, all other things being equal. However, the most important point is that 'other things are NEVER equal'.

It is if you're using similarly voiced heads and the same cab.

The amount of wattage 'needed' by a given player, and the impact of wattage levels across heads and cab combination is a function of a complex interaction between head voicing, distortion levels, cabinet efficiency and driver quality, technique of the player and tone goals. Saying that 'having more than 'x' amount of watts is silly' is, well 'silly'.

Right. And throwing all sorts of different monkey wrenches into the scenario when the dude wants a simple answer about two heads and one cab make perfect sense. I get it now.

Well you sure took me down a peg or two, Ken

[BassSurfer]

I can't tell who is being sarcastic and who isn't anymore! Ahhhh!!!

Originally Posted by JimmyM

How dare you criticize my genius!


While this is all true, as pointed out to you, I was assuming "all things being equal." I even mentioned the cab being equal, and I find the pre on all RB series heads pretty similar. So clearly I was referring to this case alone, and not other scenarios involving all the other stuff on the market.


It is if you're using similarly voiced heads and the same cab.


Right. And throwing all sorts of different monkey wrenches into the scenario when the dude wants a simple answer about two heads and one cab make perfect sense. I get it now.

Well you sure took me down a peg or two, Ken

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by BassSurfer

I can't tell who is being sarcastic and who isn't anymore! Ahhhh!!!

I am. Ken is dead serious

[MostlyBass]

I've found that to figure Jimmy's posts out, just ask " is he kidding or serious?" ... Then answer, "both"

[murphy]

I have to say I very much appreciate kjungs contribution and opinions, advice and taste.
He gives us useful food for thought as a sidenote...and I think we share some tone preferences.

Must add that I also very much enjoy JimmyM's comments and advice

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by KJung

Never is. Even wattage among heads is not comparable, given the HUGE variation in hi passing, midrange distortion, THD levels, etc. When you also take into account the vastly different tapers built into master gain pots, resulting in some heads (assuming maximum clean gain settings) reaching full power with the master at 11 o'clock, and other heads with audiotaper master volume designs not even starting to crank until 1 o'clock or higher, you have a mess trying to compare 'a 500 watt amp to a 200 watt amp'. If you further add the vastly different power management/limiting circuits across amps (with some hard limiting at a certain power level/THD, and others gently compressing with higher distortion levels), you really get into a mess

It is if I say it is, and I'm saying it is.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

It is if I say it is, and I'm saying it is.

Again, trying to answer his question regarding if the higher powered model is 'louder' than the lower power model. I did not see in his post that he has chosen a cab yet, so again, trying to provide information regarding the unfortunate real answer that 'it depends, based on the cabinet you eventually choose'. No free lunch, since there is more weight and size and money involved.

If he chooses a relatively high efficiency, tightly voiced 4ohm 410, the answer is most likely 'don't waste your money on the heavier, higher powered unit, it will matter very little'. If he chooses a deeply voiced 8ohm 412 cab, the answer is 'ABSOLUTELY choose the higher powered head etc., etc., etc.

Again, trying to put some of the other posts in context on this thread, where posters are saing 'well, I have a 300 watt amp and only run the master on 3 and it is plenty!. It can be helpful (I hope) for others and also those who post that kind of stuff to have a basic understanding of why that sort of information can be quite misleading to an OP who is trying to figure this out and has a limited amount of funds and a limited choice of options. Many posters don't really understand this stuff, and hopefully appreciate a bit more detailed info on the relationship between master volume setting, power, and volume (which is pretty much zero).

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by murphy

I have to say I very much appreciate kjungs contribution and opinions, advice and taste.
He gives us useful food for thought as a sidenote...and I think we share some tone preferences.

Must add that I also very much enjoy JimmyM's comments and advice

IMO, Ken is pretty much always on the mark - Jimmy is entertaining at times...


- georgestrings

[KJung]

Did not mean for this to get into personalities, etc.

I think the thread has run its course. Sorry to those (including JimmyM) if my 'trying to provide more accurate info' to the OP was a bit heavy handed.