Adding a Guitar Amp to produce clarity and mid-voicing.

[Flux Jetson]

Thank you everyone for the interesting and informative replies. It's always inspiring to hear of other people's attempts at trying something different from the well beaten path. While popular conventions are fine, and they do what they do well and good enough, outer-edge thinking is something I've been attracted too since I was young. It has been good to hear that other people like to walk the less travelled paths.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by jason weatherby

Even better, try it with a stereo Rickenbacker with the neck pup into the bass amp and the bridge pup into the guitar amp.

I'm already there. In fact it is the Ric that sortof made me think of doing this type of thing. I'd read of Geddy's tricked out Rics, as well as other players that have done similar things. I remember when KISS was all the rage with the pop-rock kids when I was in High School (late 70s). One of my friends at the time was into them hard core, and he would tell me about Ace Frehley's "stereo" guitars. I'd seen pictures of that axe in the Rolling Stone as well. Images like those, and the details about the stuff I've read regarding Geddy Lee's older P-bass and Rics were some of the sparks that lit those inspirational fires in my head, which lead me to trying the 2-channel ideas out, as well as using more than just a bass amp and a bass cab to achieve my sonic goals.

Here's a detailed journal of what I've done to my Jazz bass in pursuit of new designs and sounds ....

2 channel modification on a J (many pictures).

Tons of pics of my modded J as well as all the details on how I made it work.

Best wishes ... be well.

Flux Of Earth.

[Goteky45]

i've also wondered about the wattage ratio between the bass amp and the guitar amp and the speaker area ratio... would a guitar 1x12" 30W all-valve combo be enough for, lets say, a bass 250W at 8 ohm trough a 2x10"?

[hemmerlinj]

Originally Posted by Goteky45

i've also wondered about the wattage ratio between the bass amp and the guitar amp and the speaker area ratio... would a guitar 1x12" 30W all-valve combo be enough for, lets say, a bass 250W at 8 ohm trough a 2x10"?

If it's anything like a car stereo I'd say you could get away with less for the mids/highs. But it doesn't hurt to have the extra power so the amp doesn't have to work as hard.

I used to have a car stereo that was 1000 watts for bass, and 200 watts for mids and highs. Loud as hell, and my car vibrated like there was no tomorrow. God, I'm happy I don't have this anymore.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Goteky45

i've also wondered about the wattage ratio between the bass amp and the guitar amp and the speaker area ratio... would a guitar 1x12" 30W all-valve combo be enough for, lets say, a bass 250W at 8 ohm trough a 2x10"?

EASILY! I was using a 75 watt Spider 2x12 (solid state) and it was keeping up with a sealed 4x10 and a ported 2x10 both running at 4ohms powered with roughly 400 watts each without difficulty. You figure that it doesn't need to be all super loud, it just needs to provide some top end and midrange. You should be fine with the amp you mentioned in combination with the 2x10.

[Goteky45]

great thank you

[countrybass007]

The only thing I've learned in many years of bi-amping is seperate volume and tone/eq controls is a must. It allows you the ability to balance the total sound your sending out into the audience.

[KeithAlanK]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

ART offers the Pro Channel II for $299 (street), it's a rack mounted mic preamp that works just great for bass...

Combined with a class D power amp such as Peavey's IPR series with built-in "crossover" filters, this is a system I hope to build next year.
In the meantime I just got a MKIII Peavey Bass head to go with my 410TX cab and will run it full range until I stumble across an old PV 212 guitar combo at my price point. Deuce, Mace, or newer and lower power. Even the Transtube all-solid-state amps are cool with me--their distortion is smooth and musical.
The MK3 Bass head has a passive EQ channel, an active channel with parametric mid, a graphic assignable to either/both plus a variable crossover to feed a guitar amp or standard bass stuff.

First after my tuner I have a cheap Behringer tube DI to send a warm and slightly grindy full range to the PA (or patched into any of several points in the signal chain) and plan to put a condenser mic on the mid/high combo's 12"s.
With an Ibanez SR500 I already get a tone that most people describe as Geddy-Squire+Eddie Jackson, but I'm aiming to add some Dug Pinnick and Sheehan tones to my arsenal.
After I get some Barts for my 8-string, all bets are off when it comes to crazy tones and full sound behind guitar solos.

This is a great thread so far, Flux Jetson. I'm ALL about this kinda stuff.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by countrybass007

The only thing I've learned in many years of bi-amping is seperate volume and tone/eq controls is a must. It allows you the ability to balance the total sound your sending out into the audience.

Bing, bang, boom! That's totally it!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by KeithAlanK

.....This is a great thread so far, Flux Jetson. I'm ALL about this kinda stuff.

Thank you, I always try to incite thought, and prime the imagination.

I mean, there's already tons and tons of "standard" type setups that the majority of people use ... but it's usually just more of the same thing in a different color. What I mean by that is, the buck-standard "bass - amp - cab" setup is fine, and it works well enough I suppose. And that type of rig suits many folks well enough. But there are so many other avenues of approach to select, and many of them cost less than going with whatever the mainstream gear providers offer us.

Sure, using a J bass with a Mesa WalkAbout and cab of choice works fine (or whatever). But if you're more adventurous, and you trust your own instincts, there are so many less travelled paths to select!

Another idea I've toyed with is using some sortof 3x6" *treble cab* that would sit on top of the rig. Make it so it houses like (let's say) three 6 inch drivers, and use some sort of crossover or other EQ, and either power it with it's own discrete power amp channel, or go the more standard "crossover network" setup and power it with the same power amp rig that drives your bass cab. The three "treble speakers" could be arranged in their own cab in a radial fashion. So the center speaker faces straight on, and the two periphrial speakers are facing left/right angles .. perhaps about 22 degrees each way or something like that. One nice feature of this approach is that it can be retained should you decide to change bass amps/cabs. And it can be refitted easily enough to whatever ~new~ bass amp and/or bass cab you end up using. And since it's so tweakable, retuning it to fit-in with the new rig is not an issue.

Or another alternative is to set up the three separate midrange/treble drivers in little ~pod~ cabs for each speaker ... much like the way that home theater speaker setups work. That way you would be afforded the ability to angle the high-drivers in any directions needed to suit the situation or venue. So you'd have your main bass cabs, then these three little satelite speakers in their own little pod-cabs, all driven by some sort of crossover or discrete amp channel with it's own EQ/gain stages, and so on .. totally independent of the bass amp/cab.

This idea could be tested using three (two?) small guitar practice amps. Each one facing where ever it needs to be pointed, and turned up or down and EQ'd to suit the situation. So like a couple/few little Line 6 Spider practice amps with 1x6 or 1x8 speakers in them. With the loads of tones created in the little modeling amps, the outer atmosphere is the limit! I think those little bombers sell for like $125 or less.

So, either something like a single cab with a 3x6" setup, or two/three little "pod" cabs with 6" drivers in each one, or two/three little guitar practice amps. All three ideas are sortof the same thought expressed three different ways. Three different executions of the flex-directional, independent gainstage/EQ midrange/treble drivers. Any of which isn't permanently married to any single bass amp or bass cab. Versatilty and freedom, all in one idea!

Just more thoughts added to the works.

[Goteky45]

that´s a great idea, but what would you use to send the bass signal to which amp (assuming the 3 line 6's cenario)? Wouldn't there be a major tone and signal level loss from spliting the signal between 4 amps?

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Goteky45

that´s a great idea, but what would you use to send the bass signal to which amp (assuming the 3 line 6's cenario)? Wouldn't there be a major tone and signal level loss from spliting the signal between 4 amps?

Well yes, if you use a passive splitter.

There are several ways to actively split the signal, and a number of active splitters out there in the open market.

One way is to use a small mixer that has several busses. There are also any number of active signal splitters available. As well as some DIY solutions to get this done.

[D.A.R.K.]

Yup (bass amp for the 18 behind stack):

The whole shebang:

Too much for me to haul now, plus it was for a specific project that is defunct.
I'm currently getting some pieces together for the same approach, but much more portable. I recently picked up an EV zxa-1 powered subwoofer,
and am thinking about the top portion. I'll probably pick up the matching top box (I perform a lot of electronic music and this would work great for that and clean bass reproduction). However, I have always preferred solid state power and clarity for subs, with tubes for top end drive and harmonic content. Since it would have to provide the mids as well, maybe something closed back, or perhaps a 1x12 cab and 100 watt head.
I don't think of this stuff as left field at all, it's not that uncommon ime.
I'm also working on a rig somewhat like your modular synth approach, but using a universal audio apollo thunderbolt interface and macbook pro, hosting ableton live with a softstep foot controller. But that's another topic....

[Flux Jetson]

^^ Psycho-sick perfection! Holy Cats that is one nice rig.

As for your synth rig approach .. hey man, whatever works, y'know? I just totally dig the other-than-common paths some folks utilize, such as your setup!

Nice .. oh yea .. really REALLY nice! I have a Marshall JTM45 and a 20 Watt Lead/Bass. I use a closed back 2x12, and at times an open back 2x12. The JTM provides ~decent~ mids .. perhaps not as voicy as I like to hear but it's good nonetheless. I would LOVE to be able to afford a JCM800 though!

[Derio]

Awesome idea OP!

I have this exact same plan.

My band is a 3 piece, and though we have a very full sound (my guitarist is a virtuoso) I want to add more depth. My bass provides a lot of rhythm so I was planning on splitting my signal to a clean bass - with ALL the frequencies,

then taking the signal split and running it into a small guitar tube amp, something with a vintage tone like an Orange head - and then adding a bit of effect/distortion to the guitar frequencies.

I also might just run the split into Ableton, and using the "Guitar Rig" svt - as we are going to be using a lot of Ableton live anyways..

I think the effect of this would be awesome, and it would be something I could turn on and off with the push of a pedal - but I think the effect would be a lot like having a 4th person playing rhythm guitar.

[Flux Jetson]

Thanks for the kudos!

My only concern about using software/computers is the latency. If it is ~long~ enough it might create an unwanted phasing/chorus effect when heard from the audience. When you mix the bass amp signal with the computer effected sound, the slight timing difference heard when the two sounds are mixed in the air might produce some weird sortof ~fixed~ phasing sound that may or may not be desireable. If your computer rig has roughly (let's say) 10 or 15 milliseconds of total latency, and your bass amp has no latency, when the two sounds mix in mid air you've essentially created a flanger (delaying half of the sound and mixing it with the dry sound = flanging). It may or may not actually ~modulate~ like a flanger, but it might also produce some odd sounding tone. Sortof like a "filter matrix" or the "manual" settings on some of the flangers available out there (Electro Harmonix Electric Mistress and the Poly Chorus come to mind).

Something to consider.

[Derio]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Thanks for the kudos!

My only concern about using software/computers is the latency. If it is ~long~ enough it might create an unwanted phasing/chorus effect when heard from the audience. When you mix the bass amp signal with the computer effected sound, the slight timing difference heard when the two sounds are mixed in the air might produce some weird sortof ~fixed~ phasing sound that may or may not be desireable. If your computer rig has roughly (let's say) 10 or 15 milliseconds of total latency, and your bass amp has no latency, when the two sounds mix in mid air you've essentially created a flanger (delaying half of the sound and mixing it with the dry sound = flanging). It may or may not actually ~modulate~ like a flanger, but it might also produce some odd sounding tone. Sortof like a "filter matrix" or the "manual" settings on some of the flangers available out there (Electro Harmonix Electric Mistress and the Poly Chorus come to mind).

Something to consider.

This has come to mind, but the audio interface I'm looking at seems to have really good reviews - and a lot of people even use it as a PA solution (which my band is going to do.)

the Profire 2626 has a low latency <10ms, just need to make sure your firewire card is up to par.

So, I have a little practice guitar amp, I was thinking about trying this out.. what equipment would I need?

plan is to go like this..

BASS guitar > pedals > splitter >
1> bass only pedals > bass amp
2 > splitter > tuner > guitar only pedals > guitar amp

So basically I just need a good splitter that won't suck tone.. Passive or active, what's the diff? I plan on putting a guitar tuner as the first thing in the guitar pedals so I can turn off the guitar effect whenever.

Someone help me out and link some product ideas for a splitter solution?

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Derio

This has come to mind, but the audio interface I'm looking at seems to have really good reviews - and a lot of people even use it as a PA solution (which my band is going to do.)

the Profire 2626 has a low latency <10ms, just need to make sure your firewire card is up to par.

So, I have a little practice guitar amp, I was thinking about trying this out.. what equipment would I need?

plan is to go like this..

BASS guitar > pedals > splitter >
1> bass only pedals > bass amp
2 > splitter > tuner > guitar only pedals > guitar amp

So basically I just need a good splitter that won't suck tone.. Passive or active, what's the diff? I plan on putting a guitar tuner as the first thing in the guitar pedals so I can turn off the guitar effect whenever.

Someone help me out and link some product ideas for a splitter solution?

Ok, I'll try to help you a little here if I can.

ACTIVE:

First, an *ACTIVE* splitter retains the signal level to all of the channels the original signal is sent too. Said another way, let's say that on the INPUT side of the splitter (coming from your bass) let's just say there is 1 volt coming in (to keep this conversation ~easy~ .. actually it probably will be less than one volt AC). An ACTIVE splitter will maintain that voltage level (aka "signal level") when it is split up and sent to the other destinations. So 1 volt in, 1 volt out, and that is 1 volt to ALL of the splitter channels. So if the splitter has (let's say) four "splits", all four splits will all have that same 1 volt coming out of them. There's no signal loss at the four outputs.

PASSIVE:

Now ... *PASSIVE* splitters. They don't have any circuitry that keeps the signal level up at the original input level. The more "splits" you pull from it, the weaker the output is to all of the splits. Think of a sprinkler (like what's used to water a lawn with). You have this big stream of water coming out of the garden hose. It's at a given pressure and volume. When that stream of water hits a sprinkler and is divided up into many other streams, each stream has far less pressure and far less "volume" (amount) of water in it than the original stream coming from the garden hose. That main input stream has been divided up amongst all of the individual streams, consequently each stream is much "weaker" and has less overall amount of water flowing.

Or think of it as a hamburger that you have to cut up into five peices to share with others. You start out with a big ol' burger, and everyone ends up with just one little bite.

ACTIVE splitters have circuitry in them that sortof "boosts" all of the outgoing splits so that each split is just as powerful as the original incoming signal has. Well made splitters won't change the tone or quality of the incoming signal as it is split up .. not one little bit. Some active splitters can even boost the splits well beyond the original level (controlled by some knob or some other means of seting the output levels).

Without any doubt, you will need an active splitter.

Ok, before I can really help you with a suggested splitter, what's your budget for that item? Keep in mind your tone will be no better than the splitter you use, ALL of your sound will go through that thing .. every amp you're using will be fed by a signal that first had to go through that splitter. So if the splitter makes poo sound, your entire rig will make really LOUD poo sound.

And also, what format would you prefer? Desktop? Rack? Some sortof stompy?

Just for fun, here's where I'm at with my own setup. Myself, I'm using something that most likely will not work out for you. It's a modular synth splitter (actually those are known as "distributors" ... as they distribute a signal to several destinations). But using one of those requires some method to mount it (like some sortof of cabinet orin my case a steel "rack adaptor" that is available from several sources that cater to synth module users). And you'd also require the proper power supply for it. Even though the distributor I'm using is only like $92 bux (one IN .. four OUT) the smallest power supply is $125, and the rack adaptor is another $65. So we're at roughly $282 just to get started. The advantage is that once the rack adaptor and the power supply are bought, they can be used to house and power up to EIGHT total modules. So it a sortof system that you kindof have to devote your self to.

The distributor module looks like this ....



And here's a peek of my ever-changing synth module bass rig .... (see my sig for major details). When I'm finished doing the research and development, it will all be mounted in just this small rack adaptor frame in a 12U rack (with other goodies in the rack to further support my setup).....



However, presently I'm working with this rig until I carve out just what I need for my bass rig, which will be ultimately reduced to the rack setup above ....





Ok, enough fooling around .... here's a link to a thread I started that is dedicated to nothing but splitters.....

Signal splitters?

It's two pages of replies to roughly the same questions you've presented here. So that might give you a little push forward.

I my self am still wrestling a bit with how to split/route my set up. Yea, the modular synth distributor is a solution ... well .. "one" solution. There are others though, and I try to keep an open mind to as many possible solutions to issues as possible.

More in a bit, I need to draw some stuff first. Be back shortly ....

[Flux Jetson]

Here's my signal chain setup (for now). I have a total of FOUR signal feeds available, for now I'm using TWO. Utlimately, one feed goes to Amp Channel "A" which powers a 2x10 ported cab, and the other feed goes to Amp Channel "B" which powers a 4x10 sealed cab.

The ported 2x10 has a sick low end response, it really fills in the bottm very well, and also has a very nice voice of it's own.

The sealed 4x10 has more of a midrange sound. So it get's sent more of the mids and highs than the ported 2x10 does. One of the nice things about this is that it's very easy to set how much each cab is putting out by using the splitter to set how loud each amp channel is. This makes it easy peasy to tweak the overall tone to suit the room or the music. Too boomy? Use less 2x10 and compensate the overall volume reduction caused by reducing the 2x10's volume by raising the 4x10's volume. Not enough bottom? Add 2x10 and reduce 4x10 to keep the overall volume level correct.

I've a way to go with this setup, but it's certainly getting there! I still have yet to integrate the guitar amp into this setup (as in the topic of this thread!).



The above is a jpeg image, so if you want to save it for reference purposes I've made it easy, just copy that entire image.

Thanks !!!!

[Flux Jetson]

I just recently added the POD Pro to the works. The old first generation rack mount POD, the all red one with the single digit red led display.

It's just perfect.

I'm going to do a thread dedicated to it soon, with audio clips and all. This thing is the shizknuckle.

Got this going on now too.



It provides me with four parallel signal chains that mix back down to a mono signal. I'm just diggin this stuff. The guitar-type tones the POD provides are perfect for all of this!

Yup, thread .... gotta do it.

[Spectrum]

Wow, Flux, you're a man after my own heart, I love hardware, being an engineer by day! I wish I had the time to work on all that kind of stuff. Maybe someday I'll get that fancy, but right now I can't justify the time, money, or truck bed space.

However, I've played around with my Ric-o-sound and it is awesome. Right now I'm playing mono through my pedalboard into my Ampeg Portaflex rig, which is plenty enough for the small gigs we play, but I'm thinking of stopping by the pawn shop and picking up a small beater guitar combo and running my bridge pickup into it. That way I can abuse the crap out of it with no guilt in case I blow the speaker while having fun along the way.

Only thing stopping me is that I like having everything going through one pedalboard if I want, so maybe what I need is some sort of "combiner" pedal that will take the two Ric-o-sound channels and combine them both into one channel. That way I can run the neck pickup through the pedalboard into the Ampeg, and the bridge pickup straight into the guitar amp, and with one pedal click run both pickups into the pedalboard>Ampeg rig.

ETA: I forgot to mention, I have an old stereo Arion chorus pedal (like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVe87DaQfu0 ) from the 80s that gives me two possible output channels on the back end of my pedalboard if I want. I've never had a chance to really use that feature but it's there when I decide to use it.